Growling at handler on the out

[CajunsMom]

For those of you that do personal protection. My dog is growling at me when I tell him to out, especially if I need to reinforce the out by grabbing hold of the choke. Is this something I need to worry about and if so what is the best method of correction. I understand the dog is enjoying biting the sleeve but I don't think he should growl at ME when I tell him to out. Maybe I'm wrong. What are your opinions. Thanks!

[WorkinDogz]

Although it's annoying.....and yes....Pi$$es me off too when they do that.... You also have to remember that they are in drive when they're on the sleeve/suit.....and wanting to continue the fight (or make the fight happen again) isn't the worse thing in the world ;)

Cleaning up the out is an acceptable thing for me.

Instead of you becoming an advisary to the dog by putting your hand on his collar.....why not put him on a prong.....and a short lead (longer than a tab...but not a 4ft lead either...) or a long line...and correct from a distance.

I don't know what your PP Protection phase pattern is; but in SchH the handler isn't standing "up on" the dog for the outs. You're at a pretty decent distance away. Long line worked great for me.

"Aus" (ignored by dog) "NO (prong correction) AUS!" (dog outs)

The last thing I want my dogs to feel is that the conflict is between them and me. I appreciate their desire to continue the fight...but Aus is Aus.....

[Storm]

Because all the "juices" are flowing this adds to the reluctance to AUS. Presumably he knows what aus is! Do it in an instant where the dog is not in "high drive", and away from the presence of the helper, and check the reaction. It should be cleaner with less resistance. The dog must learn that the Aus does not mean he loses his "prize" but that the aus leads to greater and better things. Should he also be a little "highly strung" this will also lead to reluctance on behalf of the dog to aus as the bite is a way of him letting out all his "frustration"/ energies etc. He worked for it now it's MINE, type of thing. Is the out done while on the helper or once he has a sleeve and you out him. Get your helper to try and form an association that quick out leads to new bite, try two sleeves, once he gets a bite, re-agitate with other sleeve as soon as he drops it, AUS must be accompanied. Also is the dog put under pressure? Try doing relaxing exercises accompanied with an aus in conjunction with re-agitation and another bite. Try reward the aus, initially, quickly to let the dog realize that quick aus brings about next bite, reward, etc. This way the helper forms the association and you avoid possible conflict between you and your dog.;)

[Mattweiser]

another thing that works well (rather than using a long line) is my notorious e-collar....

it takes away the handler-conflict.... same technique that WD explained only Aus....NO <e-stim> Aus... ;)

but Storm is right on with the second sleeve!! Show the dog that there are other sleeves out there....

also clarification question.... you said that he growls at you when you tell him to out...

is the sleeve still in his mouth when he growls??

are you up on him pulling when he starts growling?

or is he just growling at the sleeve that he just killed??

because if mine was just revved up high to get his bite, and I craddle him or even stroke him, he is so juiced that he is growling.... but I don't believe he is growling at me... he is just pumped.....

a few times, after his most intense sessions, he did this growl/scream, and slung his head all around as he was outting... and instantly refocused on the decoy he was very serious that day!!!!:p

[Urbans]

Did you teach the dog to out using a toy first? If not, try it. It's another way to teach the dog that you and he are on the same team and outing is just part of the game.

[Mick Trainer]

Firslty let me start by saying that I agree that the above replies are sound as a method etc it is not the way in which I would train the out, especially with such a dog. Your dog clearly sees you as the adversary in the contest for the sleeve as he feels that he is loosing his prize.

Ok you have the advantage as you are training Personal Protection as apposed from sport training in making the training more real life and being able to train with a sleeve on each arm etc. Too this end I would have the helper do sleeve too sleeve work teaching the out in this process which will help take the conflict between you and the dog away. The way in this would be done would be to have your dog do an online bite. Have the helper keep facing the dog but let the arm go dead (his arm is in it but not really doing anything). The helper then places the other sleeve directly above the dogs head about 3-4 inches in hieght. Then give your dog on out command. Whilst the other arm in dead and is above his head the dog will soon place his focus onto the other sleeve and will soon take a bite. Keep repeating this excercise until the dog will let go automatically and take the other bite.

Then do the same thing again but have the helper slip the first sleeve till he holds it at the end with the other sleeve over the dogs head. At this time the dog is learning that if s/he outs he will get another bite. From here you move too a full slip. The dog will soon leanr too out.

From here you then move on to him outing and then the helper moves back and the dog can go back into his hold and bark.

This technique will teach the out without the conflict between you and the dog as well as teaching it with a clearer head (always teach tehniques like this with as little conflict between you and the dog as possible and in it's predatory mind set). Many, many times the strength is lost from the H&B due to poor training from the out. Once the dog outs well a correction can be added to really clean it up. However this will teach the basis of what is expected of him as well as placing the power of his covictions onto the helper.

To further this you can also add conflict later to help load the dog to add aggression in the H&B. This is another thread however. For me a dog must show strength in the H&B and should out to show active aggression.

I hope that this helps and is clear enough. There is a lot more too this but it is too long for me too write whilst I am this tired. Maybe another day. ;) If you use sleeve to sleeve work you should be able to reduce the conflict and stop the growling in only a few sessions. Do be careful not to do too much prey work. Using sleeves to train you dog in Personal Protection is not a problem (there is too much emphasis in equipment in PP these days which shows too me that not enough people know what they are doing) but he must get a wake up call every now and again just too make sure he realises that what he is doing is a serious business. Save your siut, muzzle and undercover arm work for this sort of senario, too test your dog is doing what he should in the real world.

Mick.

[Mick Trainer]

Sorry Storm some how I missed your post. My post just backs your up. :) Sorry my friend.

Mick.

[Storm]

No problem Mick!;)

[CajunsMom]

In the instance that the dog was growling at me was actually when the decoy had slipped the sleeve and he was carrying it and he was really on edge (if you know what I mean). Normally I wait til he spits it out but he wasn't in the mood this time so I told him to out and he refused so that's when I reached down to grab the prong and give him a small correction as I told him to out and he looked directly up at me and growled. I think we need to work on, as most of you said, outing and having another bite right there for him so he knows good things are coming if he outs.

Any other hints are greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sandy

[valdes43]

Just another alternative: When your dog's carrying the sleeve, make sure he is facing the helper. Grab him by the collar from behind and give a quick flank while saying "out". Instantaneously kick the sleeve out and have the helper work the dog so the dogs remains in drive to be worked.

[Mattweiser]

Sandy,

Cajun is fairly young still correct?

I would also work on having him come up next to you (w/sleeve in mouth) and you stroke and praise him, then let him walk away w/sleeve.....

this way he will not anticipate an out from you everytime you/he gets near...


also, I would avoid flanking a dog while doing early protection work...the chance of increasing the dog/handler stress is too high IMHO!!!

[valdes43]

My reason for posting this suggestion is because it is extremely quick if the dog is not complying. Bringing the dog immediately back into drive on the helper is not going to give the dog much time to focus on what just happened. You might be right that it is not suitable for this particular dog. I'd like to hear other opinions. It could also be done with the toy initially so that it can carry over to the sleeve work.

I do agree on petting the dog and letting it carry so it doesn't anticipate the out.

[CajunsMom]

Matt, Cajun is young in his training ;). He is actually 5 years old but has only been in training for about 4 weeks (and really likes it I might add). Would his age make any difference in the method I use?

[Mattweiser]

Yes and No..

Like Valdes pointed out, every dog is different... I thought that the dog was actually young (12-36 months)...however, even being older, he is still a green dog (not alot of PP training)... so I am still against the flanking at this point (just not as much as before ;) )..

I can certainly see Valdes's point about using a quick technique to get past the out.... I would just rather retrain the out vice forcing it....


if the dog had been working for a few years and just became stubborn, then I am all over the flanking!!:D

as always...IMHO

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Mick Trainer
If you use sleeve to sleeve work you should be able to reduce the conflict and stop the growling in only a few sessions. Do be careful not to do too much prey work. Using sleeves to train you dog in Personal Protection is not a problem (there is too much emphasis in equipment in PP these days which shows too me that not enough people know what they are doing) but he must get a wake up call every now and again just too make sure he realises that what he is doing is a serious business. Save your siut, muzzle and undercover arm work for this sort of senario, too test your dog is doing what he should in the real world.

Mick.

This is also why I feel flanking might also be a nice alternative. It is how the helper is viewed that makes the difference. Too much equipment work and the dog will lock into prey. Prey should be used to free up the dog. Initial sessions should be taught with a lot of prey to teach the dog what to bite. After that you've got to implement the pressure. This is how the dog advances.

Being green myself, my word is not stone. ;) It is just what I have seen.