Schutzhund dog best as kennel dog?

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by RotDocPA

To give some background I have a retired Ch show line Rottie who is spayed and several ancient female terriers. I have a lot more free time now, kids are older, busy w school and own interests and I cut back my veterinary job since my husband's career has become primary. Considered buying a more working bred puppy/starter schutzhund prospect. Because of kids I was not looking for a nail spitting/kick butt serious dog but high drive/fun/social sort(sport dog). Prefer a female due to kids. One litter did not pan out, only 1 pup. Other litter I decided not to pursue due to a lot of dog aggression in the pedigree. The breeder does not feel this is an issue and rec that a working dog should be kenneled and brought out for training only. This would ensure no contact/playing w other dogs(or fighting). Not sure this would be acceptable to the kids who would like to help take for walks, play ball w etc. One daughter wishes to attend training class w me. I'm not sure one ever can ensure complete separation esp where kids are concerned. Do most trainers rec kennel only dogs? Are working bitches generally too dog aggressive to manage w older non aggressive bitches(all spayed)?

I think it's important for a working dog to be socialized to the family environment and to live as a family member.

I don't think it's necessary for all dogs in a household to be best of friends, or even to be out with one another. Makes for a lot of mayhem even without dog aggression in the lines. I know people who have 8 or 9 dogs running around the house, and all you can hear is yelling and barking. Not my cup of tea. Furthermore, I certainly don't believe my dogs need to get along with ANY dog outside my household... what they need to do is learn how to ignore them, and that comes with training and proper guidance.

Just because there is a presence of dog aggression in lines does not mean that every dog in those lines will be that way, either. Leadership plays a very big role in the imprinting and management of a puppy. In other words, nurture can help squelch and bring under control some of these natural tendencies, IMHO.

[JoJo]

I'm sure they are socialized as puppies, but they are not taken for car rides to the local bank to get a cookie, taken to the parks or walked around the neighborhood asking "will you be my friend"! These are serious working dogs with a specific purpose. They are hard/strong nerved/STABLE dogs. Their purpose is not to be Officer Friendly. They are trained for bomb detection/drug detection/sentry/PP. They do have fight drives that are outstanding, but they are also very well obedience trained. On/Off buttons. They are stable and social enough to be able to do crowd control and go on tours to protect the President of the United States and all other dignitaries. But they do not live with their handlers until and if they qualify to be adopted when retired. There is no room for fear in their resume! Fear aggression as Larry said has no room in ANY dog worth their grain of salt.

Just for the record, I'm no trainer and have never trained a Sch dog or MWD of any kind. I have been exposed to MWD up close and personal and know what they are capable of. I've seen where they live and watched them being worked. Very impressive.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Rottlva

Yes I understand that!! But if the dogs aren't socialized, how then do we prevent this??? Even dogs with the most stable of nerves do have a fight/flight response built in to them. Most of the Schutzhund/MWD have a higher fight drive....Therefore if there was fear, they would back it up with aggression...

every animal/human has a flight or fight thesholds and that has nothing to do with fear aggression there is no such thing as you describe as a stable dog with fear aggression stable dogs are stable from birth. lack of socialization doesnt cause fear agression. i personally wouldnt just have a kennel dog(but not for any of the reasons that you state) but if someone wants to have a dog just for compitition and has proper housing(kennel runs and such) i see nothing wrong withthat either as most of those dogs get more excersize and more training that your average beloved house dog.

[JoJo]

I don't do Sch (too pricey and my insurance company does not allow bite work) but actually I have already spoken to the OP personally :)

I don't do Sch either, but having any dog should be a stable dog, period. As for a dog that has dog aggression in it's bloodline doesn't make that dog a bad dog or an unstable dog. Dogs don't have to like every dog they meet just as us humans don't have to like everyone they meet.

You said that you already spoke to the OP, was that before the OP posted or after? I ask this, for either you didn't give the OP the answers that they were looking for and they posted to get further answers or you gave great advise after they already posted. If the later, why not share your advise with other inquiry minds who want and/or need to know? Remember, this is a learning forum and sharing advise and knowledge is how people learn.

[btrtevino]

I don't have much to add, except that my father was one of the first class of officers to train dogs for Customs. While some dogs were more stable than others, they all lived with my brothers and sisters in the family house (he retired from customs before I was born) and had to learn to adapt to family life as well as work life. Although maybe slightly differnet than police dogs, because they were used for tracking and detection as well as protection and for lack of a better word, "taking the bad guy down" I am sure the training is quite similar. It worked out well, and some of the best dogs my family ever had came from this time period. I would like to know if law enforcement dogs are still trained in this manner. If anybody knows, please post, My dad's training all took place in nthe 70's I believe.

[Rottlva]

Originally Posted by lblax

every animal/human has a flight or fight thesholds and that has nothing to do with fear aggression there is no such thing as you describe as a stable dog with fear aggression stable dogs are stable from birth. lack of socialization doesnt cause fear agression. i personally wouldnt just have a kennel dog(but not for any of the reasons that you state) but if someone wants to have a dog just for compitition and has proper housing(kennel runs and such) i see nothing wrong withthat either as most of those dogs get more excersize and more training that your average beloved house dog.

Larry, Firstly I appreciate your knowledge base, however, I personally disagree. Yes, a stable dog is born that, stable, with stable nerve, however, we must remember that environment does play into a dogs behavior. I think that the MWD, or police dog's environment is hypercontrolled, thus it doesn't come into play as much as the "pet dog's" environment would, thus putting more dependence on the working dogs genetic temperament, but I do believe that the environment still plays a part in their behavior and reactions.

Perhaps I should have clarified myself when I stated fear aggression. I was speaking of aggressive acts out of fear. Is there a difference between a dog labled as fear aggressive, and a dog that is pushed beyond belief, or hurt, or abnormally startled that bites someone as opposed to a dog who due to lack of nerve is fearful and has learned that biting is the answer? I believe yes there is. There is such a varying degree of nerve development from weak to strong to middle of the road. I'm sure that a good varieity of the MWD and k9 units have the strong nerved dogs who are virtually unflappable, I do believe that there are some out there who are middle of the road, reactive, and less suited for the job they are intended on doing.

I would be very curious to find out if each and every MWD or police k9 unit is "just" doing their job because they are "serious working prospects". You can't tell me that these serious tough dogs, no matter how tough and serious they are don't experience fear, however infrequent, and if given an ultimatum wouldn't use their teeth to back themselves up....Especially considering their high fight drive!! They are at the core base, dogs. Perhaps bred to work through and prevail against high stress situations, but, they are in fact dogs.

Interestingly enough there is a k9 unit in the town next to me that has an unprovoked bite history. They had the dog on crowd control a few years ago when the Red Sox won the world series . The University of NH crowd was getting overly rowdy, so officers were brought in with k9's and mounted units. During a particularly tense moment when tasers and other forms of control were being applied one shepherd was walking with his handler, and took a cheap shot towards a reporter, who was minding his business, in his buttocks region. I was able to actually view the tape, and it was clearly a fear bite....Perhaps the stress was too much, perhaps the dog was not handled appropriately in crowds, but the reporter wasn't even looking at the dog, and got nailed...the officer didn't offer any commands to the dog either...Was this a "stable dog".... in my opinion, the stress got to much for him. No, he wasn't stable, or suited for that type of job.

So, while I think that these MWD and k9 units, and probably some of the Sch prospects are very strong nerved dogs who would have to have the earth come upon them to be unnerved, they may have a much higher tolerance threshold to stress, they STILL can be stressed, and still can react in a defensive way given the right situation.....Would some extra exposure in life help them out.... perhaps, if it was controlled well.

[RotDocPA]

It was interesting to see the respones out there. Obviously we are planning on a house dog. I don't think of our dogs as running amuck in our house. We have a lot of fenced property, several runs, and a dog room. We try to rotate in pairs between house and outside. Puppy will be well socialized, go to my office etc. Planning on starting w obed but if temperament is good will look into excellent local schutzhund club. I've always considered myself a rottie person but stumbled across a shepherd litter that looks amazing and the breeder wants the dog to be a housepet. Pedigree includes working ch, police dog/cadaver dog etc. Something to consider.

[Liz]

Originally Posted by RotDocPA

To give some background I have a retired Ch show line Rottie who is spayed and several ancient female terriers. I have a lot more free time now, kids are older, busy w school and own interests and I cut back my veterinary job since my husband's career has become primary. Considered buying a more working bred puppy/starter schutzhund prospect. Because of kids I was not looking for a nail spitting/kick butt serious dog but high drive/fun/social sort(sport dog). Prefer a female due to kids.

Males who are raised with children can be great with them. Personally, as a breeder, I wouldn't place a drivey sport female in a home with other females. I've had situations where several working females have lived happily together, but it's not the norm, and all it takes is one fight. Bitches don't forget.

Originally Posted by RotDocPA

One litter did not pan out, only 1 pup. Other litter I decided not to pursue due to a lot of dog aggression in the pedigree. The breeder does not feel this is an issue and rec that a working dog should be kenneled and brought out for training only. This would ensure no contact/playing w other dogs(or fighting).

Dog aggression is not something you want to see in working lines - remember, if you do plan to title your dog, you will have to report in off lead with another dog and there's no guarantee you'll be paired up with an opposite sex partner. While I have met and owned some working dogs who thrived in kennel situations, I personally prefer that my dogs live and interact with me and my family. We are a multi-dog, cat and kid household and have managed to raise a couple of SchH titled dogs from puppy up here.

Originally Posted by RotDocPA

Not sure this would be acceptable to the kids who would like to help take for walks, play ball w etc. One daughter wishes to attend training class w me. I'm not sure one ever can ensure complete separation esp where kids are concerned. Do most trainers rec kennel only dogs?

Our kids have interacted with the dogs since birth Both boys decoy now, Val, (the oldest), put his first BH on a dog last year and Lili (the baby girl) has taken over Bill's newest puppy and named him "My Chunky Puppy". I can't imagine not letting my children interact with my dogs.

Originally Posted by RotDocPA

Are working bitches generally too dog aggressive to manage w older non aggressive bitches(all spayed)?

It's not that they're dog aggressive, it's that they tend to be dominant and a bit more primal than your average pet. One of the basics of female dominance is taking out your rivals. Because the other females are spayed and older you would probably be o.k., but it's not a chance I would take unless you were a home that had a boat load of experience with working dogs.

Liz

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Rottlva

You can't tell me that these serious tough dogs, no matter how tough and serious they are don't experience fear, however infrequent, and if given an ultimatum wouldn't use their teeth to back themselves up....Especially considering their high fight drive!! They are at the core base, dogs. Perhaps bred to work through and prevail against high stress situations, but, they are in fact dogs.

Interestingly enough there is a k9 unit in the town next to me that has an unprovoked bite history. They had the dog on crowd control a few years ago when the Red Sox won the world series . The University of NH crowd was getting overly rowdy, so officers were brought in with k9's and mounted units. During a particularly tense moment when tasers and other forms of control were being applied one shepherd was walking with his handler, and took a cheap shot towards a reporter, who was minding his business, in his buttocks region. I was able to actually view the tape, and it was clearly a fear bite....Perhaps the stress was too much, perhaps the dog was not handled appropriately in crowds, but the reporter wasn't even looking at the dog, and got nailed...the officer didn't offer any commands to the dog either...Was this a "stable dog".... in my opinion, the stress got to much for him. No, he wasn't stable, or suited for that type of job.

So, while I think that these MWD and k9 units, and probably some of the Sch prospects are very strong nerved dogs who would have to have the earth come upon them to be unnerved, they may have a much higher tolerance threshold to stress, they STILL can be stressed, and still can react in a defensive way given the right situation.....Would some extra exposure in life help them out.... perhaps, if it was controlled well.

i really dont know what to tell you but 1st of all a dog that is pushed to the limits as you say given the ultimatum isnt really wrong in using its teeth to answer back. secondly the dog that bit the reporter was more than likely in drive overload from the action and unloaded on the reporter dogs in overload very often even unload on there handlers and until you train a dog of your own like this you wont understand. and i would like to add if the reporter was close enough to be in the middle of the action you described he wasnt minding his own business he was being a reporter .
something thhat needs to be understood police canines (not all) are often very poorley trained /trained too fast (because of money issues) and unscrupulos breeders and trainers prey on police departments and sell them pos dogs period.another big problem with police canines is lack of ongoing training. there are several fine police canines but these are from departments that have ongoing and there own programs and the ones that are really good you'll find many of there handlers participate in other venues. certainly all dogs to bite must have a certain amount of uneasyness about a situation in order to bite but it is far far removed from biting out of fear. to take a military working dog and socialize it heavily with all types of people like you would a pure pet dog would be a disaster. when you get a well bred dog and do your resurch for what you want they simply arent rattled by surprizes/noises/firecracker/people running by the soundness is truly in the genes, you still need to proof these things. but its very rarely something to have to work on. like skip i chose to live with my dogs kenneling may give you a tiny edge if the dog has the drive to only live for his training and this is the persons belief that kennels a dog they believe that the only excersize/companionship comes with its training and the rest of the time it sits and waits for its training so in fact it does live for this but on trial day the 1 or 2 point differance isnt worth it.

[MKane]

Olay, I'm a newbie here, but how could anyone keep a rottie, of all breeds, in a kennel? They are such people dogs,it would be a terrible thing to do. I've fosteresd close to 300 dogs, and I can't imagine any dog would benefit from that. Granted I don't do hounds.

[Rottlva]

Larry, Thanks for your input. I understand your opinion more. Unfortunatley around here, many of the k9 units are imported, and many have been failures. I have had both the pleasure, and dissapointment to attend some seminars that they have put on for the general public along with watch several demos. What I saw were sharp dogs, very capable of being fast, ultra responsive to commands, but little pushing put them over the edge. I have seen some nice dogs put through, but not enough. I like what you said about the knowledgeable handlers being involved in sport work....To the best of my knowledge, none around here are. I can see how that would greatly improve the workability of the dogs.

I have a friend who I track with who has a reactive shepherd. She has been a shepherd owner for 25 years now, works her dogs in agility, tracking and obedience, got the dog from a reputable breeder. The dog is truly out of control. He attacked and injured her horse requiring vet attention (horse was at a standstill when he attacked her), She cannot walk him down a downtown street without him lunging and barking at people, dogs, cars, you name it. He's been evaluated by 3 pet dog trainers. All have said to put him down, he's not worth the liablity. She contacted the local "working dog club" (used locally for training of police dogs) with no response. She finally was able to find a neighboring state police who said they'd take the dog on trial.... The officers response when she told him about all of this dog's troubles???? The tougher the dog, the harder the problem is to treat, the more likely they'll fit into our program... What an pompus attitude.... I've found something interesting about this dog....Can the reactivity be worked through, yes, to a degree, but what bothers me is when this dog is put to actual work, he winds himself up into such a tizzy that he is not able to think....I'll be curious to see where they go with him, or if they turn him down.

Anyhows.... just another police project over in this area which frustrates me. I know there are some good ones out there, I get frustrated though when they are putting the public at risk by putting lesser dogs out to work the streets.

Liz, I read the article about your boys (I think they were your boys??) In the USRC magazine..... Good for you for getting them involved. My hope is to get my young daughter 4 involved with my OB, agility and tracking as she gets older.

[Liz]

Originally Posted by Rottlva

Liz, I read the article about your boys (I think they were your boys??) In the USRC magazine..... Good for you for getting them involved. My hope is to get my young daughter 4 involved with my OB, agility and tracking as she gets older.

Yes, that's them My hope is that my youngest daughter will let go of my leash some day!! She keeps trying to take my dog away from me

Liz