Schutzhund?

[jazzking1971]

Speaking of only confident dogs biting a sleeve, I've seen many defensive and other wise nervy dogs bite the sleeve without issue. Raise a voice, give a hard correction, show them the stick and they run. Ok just for an interesting discussion I would like to discuss this a little. Thsi isn't really true. it may appear to a novice or s spectator that this is the case but anyone really working this dog (helper, decoy, agitator) would easily be able to see in such a dog the signs of it's nerve. There is no doubt a nervy dog can bite very hard, they often do as they view it that they are fighting for their life, any helper worth anything would see the signs of stress upon the dog (eyes widening, shoulder stiffening, sideways glances etc etc etc) that would show him what the dog is feeling. No helper should be shocked at the dog moving off the bite when he/she does things to increase stress upon the dog. He/she should easily be able to see the dog is nearing the edge. A dog will not be truly comfortable on the bite and show such avoidance and bite truly well.

Mick.[/quote]

I a few weeks ago, I was watching a female rottie at the club. The owner says she's a hard dog, bites out of aggression, loves to fight etc..maybe so but I didn't see it.

What I saw was a dog on the nervy side that lacked prey drive and confidence. I saw a helper come in zig zag on this dog to give a sideways bite and the dog backed off. It took several attempts and then finally this bitch would bite. And when she bit, it was full, calm and hard. This is not a dog from some backyard breeder like mine, this is a dog from one of the most famous kennels in Germany.

Now I've never worked this dog, but her bites are always hard, firm and full and she's never moved from the bite, while she's has always looked good to me that way, that same dog was very spooky when I met her and on two occasions she tried to take a nip at me. That's not a confident dog in my book. The owners are very good people have been working to better socialize and increase the confidence, in the year that I've know it, she's less spooky from what I can see but obviously the nerve issue is still there and I tend to think she's leaning on the side of being edgey rather than nervey

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I haven't worked pits in many years and I certainly haven't worked as many as you but from my experience, Pits don't have that same inherent tenacity towards a human as they do an animal. .

in your other thread about your dog shutting down you said you were a newbie trying to learn and now you say you havent worke a pit in several years leading us to believe your experianced so which is it????? newbie or old hand
then you stated this

I a few weeks ago, I was watching a female rottie at the club. The owner says she's a hard dog, bites out of aggression, loves to fight etc..maybe so but I didn't see it.

What I saw was a dog on the nervy side that lacked prey drive and confidence. I saw a helper come in zig zag on this dog to give a sideways bite and the dog backed off. It took several attempts and then finally this bitch would bite. And when she bit, it was full, calm and hard. This is not a dog from some backyard breeder like mine, this is a dog from one of the most famous kennels in Germany.

Now I've never worked this dog, but her bites are always hard, firm and full and she's never moved from the bite, while she's has always looked good to me that way, that same dog was very spooky when I met her and on two occasions she tried to take a nip at me. That's not a confident dog in my book. The owners are very good people have been working to better socialize and increase the confidence, in the year that I've know it, she's less spooky from what I can see but obviously the nerve issue is still there and I tend to think she's leaning on the side of being edgey rather than nervey

really re read this then ask yourself why is your club training a dog that is nervy and not of the right temperment for the work then think back on your own dog and why it shut down

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by lblax

in your other thread about your dog shutting down you said you were a newbie trying to learn and now you say you havent worke a pit in several years leading us to believe your experianced so which is it????? newbie or old hand
then you stated this
really re read this then ask yourself why is your club training a dog that is nervy and not of the right temperment for the work then think back on your own dog and why it shut down

I haven't worked dogs in 14 years and even then I've only worked a few as I was just being taught. I'm new to schH but not new to dogs. All of my past bite experience was civil but then I got hurt playing football and wasn't able to do anything for a year. Now I'm 60lbs heavier and pretty much useless when it comes to working dogs or doing anything active. A fractured pelvis will do that. I wouldn't call myself experienced, it doesn't mean I can't read a dog.

When I decided to do schH I went in with the mindset of a sponge, take it all in and do what is right. When I was around dog training in my early 20s it was all compulsion. I'd never used any of the positive motivation methods. Had I started thinking, well I used to do this and that... that would mean I'm not really listening.

My dog has conflict in OB, not in protection and not in tracking. I haven't done any real OB with my dog since that day. Now we track 3-4 days per week and do protection twice. My dog shut down because I put too much pressure on him during OB - I gave him some compulsion, too much and at a time where he'd never experienced any. I don't have a fancy euro import Rottie from working lines. He's just a dog I bought to be a pet. My only requirement at the time was that he would chase a ball and there were no hip issues in the pedigree.

Ask your national helper buddy in AZ why he works his dogs with nerve issues. That dog has looked better as she's matured but that club he's in doesn't have a helper other than him so it's not getting the proper work. Then again none of the dogs were getting worked properly. Anybody can stand in a blind and take a bite from an experienced dog.

And Larry, you've not seen my dog work. He's edgy, not nervy. There are experienced guys that I'm working with now, they've titled multiple dogs, they think my dog can get his schH1 in just a couple of months - he'll be 19mo then but I'm waiting until Nov so that will put him at 23 months. And if he can't do it then he can't do it. Anyway, I'm not a dog trainer and will never claim to be anything but a musician that would turn even YOUR head with what I do.

Edit to add:
Maybe this will help with some of my dog experience confusion: A former relative used to train K9 cops and personal protection dogs. When I was younger I thought it was cool and asked him to teach me. I learned a lot back then, my first dog was a failed K9 rottie. She had some bite training and if she was coming to me then I needed to learn how to control her and play with her. Also understand that I am forever grateful for the things I learned from J. Laubmeier and the people I know because of him.

Peace.

[Scottyrm3s]

OMG thats crazy, my club charges 300 for the year and then if we have the reginol helper come we pay a little to compensate him....you want to get into a club that has experienced people to help you out. I am in a wheelchair and I have other trainers that help me. One of them happened to be on the national team that went to europe last year....

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

The Schutzhund club I called charges $450 for six, hour long classes . It is not cheap; so if your not in it 100%, it may be better to try something a little less expensive .

Are they in obedience classes yet? When are you going to post a pic of your rottie!!!