Looking for a Schutzhund Rotti...

[bremner53]

Hey everybody, I hope this is allowed. I have been trying to decide what breed I want for my next Schutzhund Prospect. I have washed out a couple of American Bulldogs at a young age, I have considered getting another one, but I have decide to research some Rotti's. I have owned a Rottweiler in the past, but as a pet only.

I would love your guys help in directing me in the right direction. Who is consistently producing good working dogs? I want a high prey drive, good fight drive, nerves of steel, and a HARD dog, I want a dog that can handle a correction and not fall apart.

I hope you guys can help me in my search, Thanks, Meagan

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by bremner53

I would love your guys help in directing me in the right direction. Who is consistently producing good working dogs? I want a high prey drive, good fight drive, nerves of steel, and a HARD dog, I want a dog that can handle a correction and not fall apart.

Whilst finding such a dog in any breed is very difficult and whilst it causes me so much pain to say it I think the chance of you finding such a dog in a Rottweiler is extremely remote as few such dogs really exist anymore. Most Rottweilers doing SchH work carry no really seriousness in the work and would never be considered by anyone who knows what they are looking at as serious. There was a thread here recently titled Working (Schutzund) lines which you can find here http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/wor...und-lines.html were some of us discussed this issue to some degree so it would be worth you reading that thread. In short for me there are very few truly strong working Rottweilers any more and most tjhat are go back to the truly old working lines such as Dingo, Aki, Falco, Noris, Arri, Ives etc and even having such dogs in your line doesn't make them a working dog as it will depend greatly on what dogs you have gone through from then till now. You can find a nice sport only dog reasonably easy in Rotts but "good fight drive, nerves of steel, and a HARD dog" is truly hard to find. Dog like Kanto seem to through a few dogs here and there but for me the real power is almost gone and with no individual country seeming to produce such dogs the chances of finding such a dog become scarce. I am now putting semen I have had for 11 years back over one of my bitches as well as I will be doing some serious line breeding and taking a larger than I would of previously chance, to try to bring out the last of the more serious dogs hoping to hold onto such a dog but the odds keep stacking against it. In the end the vast majority lack the nerve and fight drive that you seek.

For this reason I would encourage you more towards the German Shepherd Dog as I see more (although few) dogs of this type within their gene pool and thus would give you a vaslty greater chance of finding such a dog and also having something to go to for the next generation if you do get one than in Rotts. I see no other breed who truly matches the numbers of truly strong dogs as the GSD (again let me say there isn't many there either, but at least enough to keep the gene pool strong) and even in this breed I would encourage you towards DDR lines with a pinch of West German and Czech dogs thrown in and even in the GSD again I like the older lines with a bit of the new thrown in but that is just me.

Mick.

[Nishasmom]

Can you please list the "requirements" for a Shutzhund dogs personality? I am very interested in getting involved. Nisha's dad has a Schh3 title...what does this mean? Does Multi-V 1 have anything to do with schutzhund (when I googled it quite a few sch. dogs came up)? How do you decide "this dog will do great in Schutzhund"? What age do you make this decision? Is 1 yr. too old to get started?

Also, what is the difference between PP and Schutzhund?

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by bremner53

I want a high prey drive, good fight drive, nerves of steel, and a HARD dog, I want a dog that can handle a correction and not fall apart.

Honestly, If this is what you want then get a GSD.

[Mick Trainer]

Schutzund in short is a dog sport that started as a test to create and better the German Shepherd Dog. It is made up of three phases in Obedience, Tracking and Protection. There is plenty written here regarding SchH and if you type Schutzhund into a search on youtube you will find heaps of footage of it.

Once upon a time a dog would have to be strong of temperament to do SchH but many factors including training techniques have meant that a dog now days needs a reasonable amount of drive only. From what the OP has written this is not what they desirte but rather a much more serious dog.

AS to determine how a dog is thought of as a good SchH prospect is hard to say in what I can write here but in the end the dog should have plenty of prey drive, with a good nose, be directable, and for me I want a dog that truly seeks the fight with the helper and this is where most fall down from the OP point of view.

1 Year old is fine to start.

The difference between a PP (personal protection) typr of dog and a SchH type of dog is that a PP dog needs to be able to do what is required of it in a real life situation but does not need the level of precision required for any decent level of sport work. A sport dog is judge by score only so need not be so serious but needs to be very precise as each point taken off for each small mistake costs you in the end.

Mick.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

1 Year old is fine to start.

.

Mick.

while i 99.9 percent agree with mick if you start your dog at a year unless your dog is loaded with drive be prepared to end up just doing the obediance and tracking pportions of schutzhund(not that you cant do well in all phases many have) especially with a rott what i have found is compared to other breeds when someone gets a rott they tend to get it into formal obediance to early/ they tend to neuter way to early because vets. push this when you have a rott(they think it stops them from eating people) and/ the 1st year of its life most owners from the moment they aquire the pup have nipped in the bud all its desire to bite(how many times here have you heard the expression nip in the bud and how many threads are dedicated to puppy nipping) then after a year of this your dog will be expected to jump on people and bite people and put forth drives that have been under someone thumb for a year. but regardless the whole experiance will be fun for you either way.with that being said to answer the op those dogs are outthere but it takes time and lots of reasurch i resurched litters and breeders for 1.5 years before i found what i wanted

[Mick Trainer]

Iblax's young males lines would be almost the only modern (if you like but there is plenty of old power back behind them) lines I would seek to get such a pup from for what the OP seeks. Some of the Austrian Military lines would be worth a look also. The odds are still against it, as they are with all breeds, but this would give you the best chance.

Mick.

[Nishasmom]

My breeder told me that Schutzhund clubs really don't like rotties ; they really don't take you seriously unless you have a GSD or Malinoi.

My dog is a female; I noticed that both of you specifically used males in your replies. Is there a reason?

Nisha's prey drive is VERY high, but she is small (70 lbs.). Does size matter?

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

My breeder told me that Schutzhund clubs really don't like rotties ; they really don't take you seriously unless you have a GSD or Malinoi.

My dog is a female; I noticed that both of you specifically used males in your replies. Is there a reason?

Nisha's prey drive is VERY high, but she is small (70 lbs.). Does size matter?

If you have a nice rottie that can actually do the work then you will have FEWER issues with the clubs. Most rottweilers are slugs compared to the Mallies and GSDs so you will be made fun of based on that reason alone. Another issue is helpers often don't like working the big rotties because
backs get thrown out. Rotties mature alot slower than the others dogs so don't fall into the trap, like I have, where you start compared age and breed to what you have.

If your dog has High Drive, High Nerve and Good Grip then you have something you can work with. If you are missing any of the above it will be long road for you. Size matters... smaller is going to be better. IMO, Sch is about control, speed, intensity and accuracy.

My male is less than 78lbs at 16mo. He's quick. I spent a lot of time building on his speed with hill running, swimming and the flirt pole where he was off lead. I have two other Rotties and I believe the competition for the ball helped increase his intensity.

I have very limited experience with rottie bitches in schH. But the ones I have seen come through the club have lacked one thing or another. They are either lacking grip, lacking high enough prey drive or are too nervy.

My dog doesn't have great nerve but he's got a nice edge to him that we can use when he's ready.

[Nishasmom]

Nisha is SOO fast, every time we are at the park people say "I never knew rotties were that fast. Also, her aim is so good; she catches balls and frisbees right out of the air.

Her grip is good...I think...we have a canvas toy hanging from a tree. She grabs on, and holds on (while shaking). She never readjusts her bite, she really bites to "mean-it".

I think it would be wonderful (if she is cut out for it). But it is expensive, and I would hate to "waste" our money on something she can't excel at.

By saying high nerve, do you mean...does she scare easily? She is pretty confident, when she does scare (rarely and randomly) she recovers very quickly, then she isn't ever "scared" of the same situation again.

Who knows, I have never really seen a Sch. competition, or spent quality time with a dog who competes.

[Nishasmom]

Should I start a new thread?? I hate to "hi-jack"...sorry!!

[jazzking1971]

nerves is abilty to handle pressure or stress. Imagine being in the middle of street and an exlposion goes off near you. Some people run away screaming, other will freeze and shut down completely, while others will be cover their ears and say "whoa that was close and continue on", a battle hardened soilder will cock his rifle and run towards the source - it's just another day's work to them.

Imagine another scenerio, you're walking down a street and you see two suspicious guys with bats. Some folk keep on walking unphased by the guys, other will turn and quickly walk away, other will reach in their pocket for a knife, ready for a fight. That same guy that has no issues fighting two guys with his fists or knife might turn and run at the sight of a third guy or he may have strong enough nerves that it would take five guys.

Everything has a breaking point. For my dog, as you get frontal on him with a stick, he gets more aggressive but might be looking for a place to run to just in case (edgy), I have another dog where if the same man were to look at her with a stick in his hand she would run (nerve bag). A dog with strong nerve wouldn't be bothered, doesn't look for a place to run anbd believe he will win the fight.

[Nishasmom]

Great example, thanks!! I think Nisha would hear the explosion and be startled, look around, then...on with her merry way.

In the second situation, she wouldn't WANT to fight, but if they confronted her she wouldn't back down....Of course this has never really happened, and this is a guess.

Maybe I should go ahead with the evaluation???

[jazzking1971]

speaking of pressure... you can see it in young dogs when you work them with the tug on the end of a line. The dog might chase and bite but when the helper creeps up the line you can see the stress in the eyes, tail and ears...the pup may start to whine or growl with anxiousness and then may get chewy, loosen the grip or drop the tug.

Helpers work help the pups work through this by easing the pressure with prey drive. The dog begins to think..."that's not so bad, I'm not going to get hurt" after enough sessions the helper can get close to the pup while she has a firm and full grip... then you start over with a larger prey item. eventually you'll get to a bite pillow, puppy sleeve and then a puppy sleeve on the arm and then an intermediate sleeve on the arm etc... good helpers are key in progressing a young dog. Just putting on a sleeve doesnt mean you're a helper. You have to be able to read the dog. I don't understand why some people don't understand that. You wouldn't pick up a guitar and go to a recording session if you didn't know how to read music....

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

Great example, thanks!! I think Nisha would hear the explosion and be startled, look around, then...on with her merry way.

In the second situation, she wouldn't WANT to fight, but if they confronted her she wouldn't back down....Of course this has never really happened, and this is a guess.

Maybe I should go ahead with the evaluation???

It's totally worth getting your dog evaluated.

hopefully guys like skip and lblax will chime in. I'm justa novice to schH.

Good Luck.