what makes a dog stop working?

[jazzking1971]

Maybe Skip can answer this...

For the past two days my rottie won't work for me. We went tracking on saturday morning and that was fine but then he just wouldn't do anything. His OB was slow and sloppy, his recall is gone. He won't run a blind. He won't heel, won't sit won't do anything. He wouldn't even chase a ball. He will rough house with the other dogs.

He's been eating well and otherwise seems healthy. His stool has been cowpie like since I put him back on canidae but that's been going on for weeks and his stool tested negative for everything yesterday morning.

I was concerned that he wouldn't chase a ball so I put on the sleeve and he happily did some escape bites on me. His grip is hard as it's always been. He'll bite the sleeve and carry but won't play tug with me. This dog has only experienced positive motivation training. My plan is to not work him for a few days. Maybe I will go to the club tomorrow and see how he is with the helper but maybe he just needs a break?

[Mick Trainer]

How old is this dog?

SOme times the dog does indeed need a break especially if you have been training him a lot. Always remember that the dog should work for very long (a few minutes is plenty) and not every day. Further you may need to up the motivation or look closer are your training making sure that the dog is and has been working harder and harder each time to get his motivation. Further to this it may also be time to put some compulsion to make sure he does it no matter what (depends on what you want, if you are happy with routine OB for trials then it is ok but if you want lifestyle OB as well then it is in all likelyhood time to change). You also speak of that he is working nice on the sleeve then maybe you should drop that into the OB. I train loads of dogs OB using the sleeve.

In the end the dog looses motivation because of what you are doing and working too long, not using high enough motivation, not making the dog work harder and harder on a upward sclae etc all can create this. In the end I would go back to resting the dog for a week or so then doing real short bursts of OB (I really only train my dogs for 3-4 minutes at a time) with good motivation that the dog will go harder and harder for.

Mick.

[hennie400]

Is your dog young?

This could be mental stress being expressed physically. My young BC started to go slow at training. I have taken a step backwards and make training super fun with lots of reward, and more playing than training. Sessions are kept very short.

She is definitely responding and I think it is because she feels less pressured and I have to give her time to develop mentally and phyiscally and to build our relationship.

My older dog already has a relationship with me as well as being a focussed and extroverted animal. She loves trials and is a terrible show off in front of a crowd, but she is also mentally and physically mature and I dont over train her.

[Skip]

Agree completely with what Mick said, as usual. Take a break for a little while, then keep the sessions real short. Also, on club training days, I never feed the dog in the morning before going to club, only in the evening after club. An empty stomach is a great motivator.
A guy at our club had a dog that was getting lazy in the bitework. This is what he did and it seemed to work: He brought the dog to club, brought him out JUST to watch another dog doing bitework for a few minutes...then just put him back in the crate. He did this for about 3 weeks. Then he ONLY worked the dog on the pole for a minute or two, with no actual bites allowed on the sleeve...just a couple frustrating misses. Seemed to help this dog a lot.
When Shane got a little lazy on his tracking last year, a good high level trainer told me to ONLY feed him his regular meal at the end of a successful track. Didn't take long for him to REALLY want to track.
Keep the OB sessions really short, and try to end on something really good and successful. I have a BUNCH of different balls and small tugs, and I try to use a different one at the end of obedience at the club for a reward. For some reason, Shane goes nuts when I take a ball at the end and bounce it off the A-frame wall for him to chase.

[jazzking1971]

he's 15mo. I made it a point to keep everything 90% fun 10% work. I don't think I'm over training him. We do train protection 3-5 days per week but that's fun for him. I do OB every day but it ranges from 1min to 20m and there is zero compulsion. He's always working for a bite. Until saturday afternoon, he's been a working nut.

This morning something is still up. I asked him to heel with me through the house for his food dish. He just sat there and wouldn't do anything. I ended up putting his dish in the office and called him. He did a perfect recall so I fed him and he ate as fast as he usually does.

Right now he's out in the back with the other dog and they are running around and playing keep away. I don't think he's sick.

I feed light in the mornings on training days and then after training he gets a full meal. We train protection almost every day but in very short sessions. And if we work him through pressure on one day where he fights the helper and takes a few stick hits then the next time it's mostly prey bites. His intensity has been getting noticeably deeper over the past couple of weeks.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

he's 15mo. I made it a point to keep everything 90% fun 10% work. I don't think I'm over training him. We do train protection 3-5 days per week but that's fun for him. I do OB every day but it ranges from 1min to 20m and there is zero compulsion. He's always working for a bite.

This morning something is still up. I asked him to heel with me through the house for his food dish. He just sat there and wouldn't do anything. I ended up putting his dish in the office and called him. He did a perfect recall so I fed him and he ate a fast as he usually does.

Right now he's out in the back with the other dog and they are running around and playing keep away. I don't think he's sick.

Protection 3 to 5 times a week is a LOT, as is doing and OB for even close to 20 minutes. DID you mean the dog gets a bite on a sleeve for ALL OB work? If the dog is getting lazy, then that is not a good motivator (and something I wouldn't use anyway, but I'm sure Mick knows what individual dog this would work on). As far as the dog refusing to heel this morning before eating, and as long as you are sure the dog is healthy, I would have put a training collar and leash on him and MADE him heel after the 1st refusal. Then he would have got his food. Compulsion is not a bad thing when appropriate. BUT, it really sounds like the dog is being worked too much. Slow down.

[jazzking1971]

Sorry, I edited my last post while you were replying.

I think he's being over loaded too. I'm planning on going to the club tonight and then not do anything for the rest of the week. Next week I'll bust out the prong collar if I have to. My plan is BH in April SchH1 in July and SchH2 in Nov.

[Ayoka]

What about a learning plateau? That may be a possibility...Just a thought.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

Sorry, I edited my last post while you were replying.

I think he's being over loaded too. I'm planning on going to the club tonight and then not do anything for the rest of the week. Next week I'll bust out the prong collar if I have to. My plan is BH in April SchH1 in July and SchH2 in Nov.

This answers a lot for me right here.... Your dog is 15 months old and you plan on getting SchH2 in the next 8 months... It's not impossible, but your dog is still very young physically and mentally... My guess is he's telling you his a bit 'stressed' and needs to slow down some. I would be happy with a BH in the next 8 months and a lot of strong foundation work for the Schutzhund titles in the following year. Goals of SchH2 before age 2 may end up backfiring on any long term plans of success... I would be concerned w/ the lack of true foundation that the dog will really have.... especially a rottweiler that tends to mature a 'bit' slower than a GSD or Mal... Of course each dog is different.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

This answers a lot for me right here.... Your dog is 15 months old and you plan on getting SchH2 in the next 8 months... It's not impossible, but your dog is still very young physically and mentally... My guess is he's telling you his a bit 'stressed' and needs to slow down some. I would be happy with a BH in the next 8 months and a lot of strong foundation work for the Schutzhund titles in the following year. Goals of SchH2 before age 2 may end up backfiring on any long term plans of success... I would be concerned w/ the lack of true foundation that the dog will really have.... especially a rottweiler that tends to mature a 'bit' slower than a GSD or Mal... Of course each dog is different.

I'm not going to force anything on him but if he can do it then he can do it. He can do a BH right now and was ready for that two months ago. My obstacle was his age and a nearby trial. He's not ready for the schH1 yet but he should be by July. He does all of the exercises but they need to be tightened up. I've been working with people who have titled dogs to a national level. They all were rottie people at one time so they understand the breed. They think he should be ready by July and Nov.

One serious hole at the moment is his retrieves. If we can't get him to do it via positive motivation then we'll have to do via the forced retrieve and he's not ready for that yet. So if he's not doing the retrieves then his maturity will dictate the schedule. But for now, April, July and Nov is the time line. I need goals otherwise I get flakey and in this case if we don't meet them then there is no loser and I'll just reset the schedule.

I know there have been rotties that have earned their schH1 at 18mo. I believe I have a special little guy and until last saturday he's been showing it.

[Luvs]

Have you ruled out any type of injury?

When we were heavily training and trialing Keil, he decided one day he no longer wanted to work. He pretty much stopped heeling or if he did heel it was sloppy, he had no attention, and this dog who absolutely LOVED jumping started refusing any and all jumps.

We thought maybe he was being overworked so gave him a little break. When we started back up again he was still refusing jumps, so we took him to the vet where we discovered he had injured his back. He took 6 weeks off then we slowly started working him again and he has been fine ever since

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I'm not going to force anything on him but if he can do it then he can do it. He can do a BH right now and was ready for that two months ago. My obstacle was his age and a nearby trial. He's not ready for the schH1 yet but he should be by July. He does all of the exercises but they need to be tightened up. I've been working with people who have titled dogs to a national level. They all were rottie people at one time so they understand the breed. They think he should be ready by July and Nov.

One serious hole at the moment is his retrieves. If we can't get him to do it via positive motivation then we'll have to do via the forced retrieve and he's not ready for that yet. So if he's not doing the retrieves then his maturity will dictate the schedule. But for now, April, July and Nov is the time line. I need goals otherwise I get flakey and in this case if we don't meet them then there is no loser and I'll just reset the schedule.

I know there have been rotties that have earned their schH1 at 18mo. I believe I have a special little guy and until last saturday he's been showing it.

We ALL think we have special dogs, but don't concentrate so much on dates on the calendar for trials. The dog's training and successes will dictate it. You gotta get by that BH first, and (not trying to be a smartass here) if the dog refused to heel for you this morning in your own house, he ain't ready for the BH yet. Half of the BH OB is offleash. How is his long down? Consistent with other dog doing OB on the field? Have you practiced a lot of scenarios for the temperment portion of the OB? Having someone ride a bike slowly past your dog? Have you practiced having a group of people in a circle around you, then all move in quickly to tightly crowd you and the dog? The judge can ask for a lot of surprises on a BH.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by Skip

We ALL think we have special dogs, but don't concentrate so much on dates on the calendar for trials. The dog's training and successes will dictate it. You gotta get by that BH first, and (not trying to be a smartass here) if the dog refused to heel for you this morning in your own house, he ain't ready for the BH yet. Half of the BH OB is offleash. How is his long down? Consistent with other dog doing OB on the field? Have you practiced a lot of scenarios for the temperment portion of the OB? Having someone ride a bike slowly past your dog? Have you practiced having a group of people in a circle around you, then all move in quickly to tightly crowd you and the dog? The judge can ask for a lot of surprises on a BH.

Until the other day his OB was stellar. His long downs are better than any other dog in our club. I disagree that just because he refused in the house he isn't ready. It tells me something is going on with him, he's either testing rank, he's sick, stressed out or hurt. The weather has suddenly changed from being nice to hot. Daytime temps are mid 80s already so that's possibly a factor too. My wife mentioned the other dog has stopped carrying objects on walks since friday.

As far as the traffic portion of the BH, we often go to malls and stores etc. A week ago I had extremely good attention heeling in the middle of a busy outdoor mall where there were hundreds of people moving about. He's fine with bicycle, rollerbladers and skateboarders. He might have a problem with being staked out, having a dominant dog walk past and give him a look. He's proven to be fine in crowds and amoung other dogs out in a very busy and public environment. I'm not working on my own, I train with two groups and there are national level people in both. We're training for schH3 but with an eye for what is coming up and that's the BH. I'm new to schH and follow the advice of those who have been there before with multiple dogs, they are respected members of the local schH community, they know me and know my dog.

I only believe my dog is special because other respectable and knowledgeable people tell me so. To me he's just my dog to others they say they've only seen a few rotties with the level of drive he shows.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I only believe my dog is special because other respectable and knowledgeable people tell me so. To me he's just my dog to others they say they've only seen a few rotties with the level of drive he shows.

I agree that usually when people are making these kind of comments then you most likely do have something special... I have been extremely fortunate to have that in Maddie...

That being said, even a good dog with all the drives should NOT be rushed and if you are starting to see him shut down on you then you need to take a step back and understand what is going on. Our dogs deal w/ (and exhibit) stress at many different levels and he may be showing that to you now (the heat may be a factor, but a dog who is ready will work thru the heat). Having drive is a great asset, but proper solid foundation still must be developed thru time and correct repetition... This isn't going to happen by rushing (no matter how great the dog is)... Yes, there have been rottweilers getting SchH1 at 18 months... I just wouldn't recommend it for any dog that is on schedule for a longer schutzhund career and especially not by a novice handler (no matter who is supporting you.)

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

Until the other day his OB was stellar. His long downs are better than any other dog in our club. I disagree that just because he refused in the house he isn't ready. It tells me something is going on with him, he's either testing rank, he's sick, stressed out or hurt. The weather has suddenly changed from being nice to hot. Daytime temps are mid 80s already so that's possibly a factor too. My wife mentioned the other dog has stopped carrying objects on walks since friday.

As far as the traffic portion of the BH, we often go to malls and stores etc. A week ago I had extremely good attention heeling in the middle of a busy outdoor mall where there were hundreds of people moving about. He's fine with bicycle, rollerbladers and skateboarders. He might have a problem with being staked out, having a dominant dog walk past and give him a look. He's proven to be fine in crowds and amoung other dogs out in a very busy and public environment. I'm not working on my own, I train with two groups and there are national level people in both. We're training for schH3 but with an eye for what is coming up and that's the BH. I'm new to schH and follow the advice of those who have been there before with multiple dogs, they are respected members of the local schH community, they know me and know my dog.

I only believe my dog is special because other respectable and knowledgeable people tell me so. To me he's just my dog to others they say they've only seen a few rotties with the level of drive he shows.

We all hit snags in training at times. Make SURE it is not health related. Anything other than that is a training issue, and it just seems (from what you have described here) that you have been working the dog too much. I like my club a lot, and they have members that have trained at national levels also in the past...BUT they are GSD (and a few malinois) people, and those damn dogs mature MUCH faster than rotts. One of the WORSE thing you can do with a young rott is train too hard too fast (especially in protection). Slow training obviously takes longer, but fast training (if you are not careful, knowledgable, and especially if you are new to the sport) ) can create issues with a rott that can take a loooooong time to fix...and I've heard about more than one good prospect actually ruined and unable to recover. My best advice is to make sure it's not health related, then slow down and keep it short.