what makes a dog stop working?

[sch1rot]

I understand your enthusiasm, and even when times can be frustrating. We have all been there in one way or another. Using the forums to "call out" people usually does not help at the end of the day if you are hoping for everything to finish smoothly. IMO

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by sch1rot

I understand your enthusiasm, and even when times can be frustrating. We have all been there in one way or another. Using the forums to "call out" people usually does not help at the end of the day if you are hoping for everything to finish smoothly. IMO

?????

Nothing bad was said. I respect them and have never said anything bad about anyone I train with.

**Edit**

I see what's going on. JL calls you to give his side of things. I don't care and this forum will never hear about what's been done to me as I see and others it. All I care about is getting titles on my dog. I want JL to be a part of that, I would be more than honored to work with a guy like that but I also need to be able to train with the best people that I can find and not have issues because I do it. This thread is about looking for help and clearing confusion for me as it pertains to training my dog. I do everything to the best of my ability, I listen and learn. This thread is about finding truth and a path to progressing my dog. I only know what I read about schH and I will never claim to have practical experience in the field until I have adequate titles to back me up. Even then it would only be my first dog that gets titled and my perspective would be limited.

Dogs don't care about personal issues or club issues.

[sch1rot]

I am not going to get into a back and forth, but for the record I received no call. It has been a few weeks since our last conversation, and I think maybe a few months ago I asked if you both trained together after seeing your name on here. Other than a yes, I know nothing more about you or your dog. He is not like that.

I wish you the best with your dog, and success on your journey together.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by sch1rot

I am not going to get into a back and forth, but for the record I received no call. It has been a few weeks since our last conversation, and I think maybe a few months ago I asked if you both trained together after seeing your name on here. Other than a yes, I know nothing more about you or your dog. He is not like that.

I wish you the best with your dog, and success on your journey together.

my bad and my apologies.

I like the guys in the club and have nothing but good things to say about JL. He's a stand up guy and has been very generous with me.

There was an issue that crept up with the club last week and I was assuming things were being said. I don't know why the issue even came about but it signalled a change in the club and the way the dogs are trained enough to make me question if I'm in the right club or not. I only care about dogs and how I can help others.

JL when you read this, good luck this weekend. I have no issues with you.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

yes, in sight but a considerable distance away and on a lead. We did that for about 2-3 minutes the other dog came off the field and then he got a bite before we started our protection exercise. His long down is quite solid and has been since he was 9mo old.

Minus the protection work, the exercises we do are more than just a routine, at least for me. IF we can get a schH3 then I will consider the PP arena.

i dont know if that was such a bright idea keeping a young dog in a calm down while another does bite work??? did you have to force him to stay down or is his drive just that low.

[jazzking1971]

it's not a regular thing. It's was because I was waiting to step onto the field but the previous dog went longer than expected. It certainly wasn't a calm down but he didn't move and when released he exploded into the helper who came down to set up an escape bite. It was based on that we decided to try long bites for his first time.

The point is, he understands what it means to stay in a down position, regardless of circumstance, if told.

We did the full sch1 routine yesterday. It needs a lot of cleaning up but the general outline is there. He's running the blind and coming into the B&H nicely off lead. We're not doing 30 sec barks or anything but we're getting 3-5 solid barks and he gets a bite. We're building on that.

Nice explosion into the escape, we had issues with outing but it's a new exercise to time. The reattck looks good, he had no issues with being driven nor with the stick hits. We tried some back transport heeling and he needs help there. The courage bite looked very nice the two times we tried it yesterday. It was a bite and a slip... no drive.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

it's not a regular thing. It's was because I was waiting to step onto the field but the previous dog went longer than expected. It certainly wasn't a calm down but he didn't move and when released he exploded into the helper who came down to set up an escape bite. It was based on that we decided to try long bites for his first time.

The point is, he understands what it means to stay in a down position, regardless of circumstance, if told.

We did the full sch1 routine yesterday. It needs a lot of cleaning up but the general outline is there. He's running the blind and coming into the B&H nicely off lead. We're not doing 30 sec barks or anything but we're getting 3-5 solid barks and he gets a bite. We're building on that.

Nice explosion into the escape, we had issues with outing but it's a new exercise to time. The reattck looks good, he had no issues with being driven nor with the stick hits. We tried some back transport heeling and he needs help there. The courage bite looked very nice the two times we tried it yesterday. It was a bite and a slip... no drive.

so you did long bites for the 1st time but you think your dogs ready to title??? you just truly dont get what the importance there is in letting a young dog be a young dog in the long run your dog will suffer from the training and will eventually revert back to the foundation which there was none. and that will leave you at a trial watching one of the helpers you called out or one of the many helpers they will tell run your dog off the field all the way to germany just to prove a point.

[pazzo]

I have been reading this thread and found it to be very frustrating! Jazzking, I feel for you! You have gotten some good advice here. I sincerely hope you re evaluate your current situation.

I personally have been in the sport a tad over 3 yrs. I had ZERO experience! I have trialed at mostly at championship trials. My dogs successes at National levels are all attributed to my TRAINER! As a newcomer, you need to find someone who has been there and done that! If the person has never been there, how can they lead you there? Stick with someone you trust. If you dont trust, how can you follow? ...As Dean Calderon says "The proof is in the points" ...and to add although I have trialed at the nationl level, in no way could I ever train someone else to get there! My point is there is no better teacher than experience!!!

Find the best, stick with him/her and leave the rest alone. Practice doesnt make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect!! (I cant remeber where I read that but I love it!

Put your dog first and your friends second.
Good luck.

[jlhnokc]

JazzKing, I can't offer a lot of advice about SCH, but I can say from an outsider looking in you seem inpatient. I understand your dog is going through the motions, but there is so much more to it than that. It seems to me you are at a very scary point that with one wrong move from anyone and your dog is going to be sent reeling backwards, maybe never to return again. I can relate it to horse training. Just because my horse will clear 3'3 doesn't mean he's ready for it, or that high of jumps in a whole course. A FOUNDATION has to be built and that takes lots of time doing smaller jumps, adding in more and more as we go and PROOFING each step as we move along. I see it no different than where your at. Why push? You have got some great advice on here from people YOU KNOW know what they are talking about, not to mention, look how torn you are about your training? Don't you think that your dog feels that as well? Even if you don't realize you're doing it? Take a deep breathe and back up a bit, it's for the good of your dog.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by lblax

so you did long bites for the 1st time but you think your dogs ready to title??? you just truly dont get what the importance there is in letting a young dog be a young dog in the long run your dog will suffer from the training and will eventually revert back to the foundation which there was none. and that will leave you at a trial watching one of the helpers you called out or one of the many helpers they will tell run your dog off the field all the way to germany just to prove a point.

Larry, I'm not saying my dog is ready to title, OTHER people are saying my dog is ready to title. There in lies my confusion. I don't know who to trust. On one hand I want to go with people that I know and have been working with for a year, on the other hand I want to trust the people who have been there done that to a very high level.

And the helper you speak of is the one who's helped me with my foundation work. He's also the one that says NOW he needs to train with a helper that doesn't understand basic drives nevermind how to build them. I've seen feurhaus run off a dog. I have tons of respect for his work on the trial field but his last training maneuver leaves me and others scratching our heads. (You too) I can't believe he'd want my dog to get screwed up. So either he does want him to be screwed up or he doesn't know that my dog could get screwed up. Does this make sense?

When a guy like Wayne Walcott says "two months" should I believe him? He didn't run off my dog on the long bite and I understand it could happen. I don't know him from adam and he doesn't care one bit about me. In fact I doubt he even remembers my name at this point. I have friends are bringing me to the best they know and that's further and further from the people that I know and grew with. So why would he say something like that? Maybe because it's true or because he dislikes some of the people I know and wants to see me fail because of it.

jlhnokc, I can see why you think I'm impatient and perhaps so BUT I'm all about what is right and fair. If it takes two or three or never then so be it. I've submitted myself to just do what others tell me as long as I know they know what they are doing.

Understand that my little schH world has been shaken to the point that I am on my own truth seeking mission. This world is crazy yet very much like the music world. Some people say so and so is an idiot. Others says somebody is is nothing but a big peice of meat, yet others say so and so is great but another person will say stay away.

I'm looking for a foundation for myself and for now it seem that I should just listen to the people who've been there and done that in the very least.

Do I think the guys in my club have what it takes to help me title my dog? One of them does but I haven't seen results

Do I think the other guys I work with have what it takes to title a dog? Absolutely and they've proved it and on top of that I am seeing results with my own dog.

To further the confusion, one of the helpers in my club trained with me and another training helper, this guy said he likes what he sees and mentioned that this helper just brings out things our main club helper hasn't.

Huh???????

So now I'm left with who to trust. What I see or what I feel or what I hope?

This is not about impatience this is about what is right for me and my dog.

Do I think I will get to a national level? Probably not, but I'm going to try my best. BUT if that's my goal then I need to make sure that I am doing things correctly and working with the right people.

[jazzking1971]

I want to stop this thread. It's turning into something I was never intending and we're way off topic.

All I want is to train my dog and if I can't get where I want then so be it.. Thanks all for your input and help.

[Mick Trainer]

In the end no one can tell you who to trust, follow etc because this isn't an exact science as every dog.helper conbo is different and what works for one may not work for another and only results will show who had a better idea in this case. In the end you will need to make up your own mind who to follow and in the end that may be wrong, but at least you will have tried something. We learn much from failing, but little from success.

Mick.