what makes a dog stop working?

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by lblax

rotty or mal there is training differences and dog differences but the concept stays the same you would have a mal overloaded also. believe it or not the front with the dumbbell and dumbbell work in general is stressful work. before dumbbell work the bite work and obedience must be strong and almost complete especially if you end up doing the forced retrieve . are you actually in a club environment where as you pay yearly dues or are you paying these guys for training on a session basis???

I paid $300 bucks to join up with a local club. They have one official meeting per week. We have a great national trial helper in that group but last week I was told that all young dogs were to be worked by the helper that has virtually no experience.

The other guys I train with are just training buddies. Only two of us haven't titled dog but the others guys have titled many dogs to a national level. We are all on the same page using the balabanov method for OB. I get tons of tips and tricks. We don't pay dues but we do trade rounds of lunches or dinners.

We had a great session the morning. We did a full schH1 track with food on the corners and jackpot only. The guys thought it would have been about an 85-88 today so we need some work there.

Then we did protection. No serious agitation. Until today we had issues with him laying down in the blind. I had him running around two empty blinds on command then the helper decided to step into one of them with out me or the dog expecting it. My dog it... he ran one blind came in, saw the helper bark bark bark... all up and bouncing in the way I see most dogs. Three solid barks and a bite. Then we tried it again and he did the same thing but we got five barks before he got a bite. Then we ran him again, five barks, I fussed him out on the line into a platz and we did the escape. (just a bite and slip, no driving the dog)

We ended the morning with his 2nd ever courage bite from about 30 yards out. Nice bite, the sleeve was slipped and I put him up.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I'm sure it was a joke. I took it that way.

it certainly wasn't a joke

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I We have a great national trial helper in that group but last week I was told that all young dogs were to be worked by the helper that has virtually no experience.

.

lets think this through does it make sense that they would have the guy that has little experience working the dogs that need the most training and can be screwed up the easiest????

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by lblax

lets think this through does it make sense that they would have the guy that has little experience working the dogs that need the most training and can be screwed up the easiest????

Well it doesn't make a lot of sense to me but I have been in the habit of trusting the main helper blindly. He thinks my dog should be on a pole for drive and grip work with a pillow. This is confusing because the other people I have worked with say he doesn't need drive work and he's biting well on a sleeve.

USA judge Nathaniel Roque worked my dog a few weeks ago. He asked what my dog was biting and I said he's on a sleeve. But the main helper from our club said to use a pillow. Nathaniel, worked him with a pillow and then a sleeve and said he's ready for the sleeve. Yet after that the main helper in the club thinks my dog should be on a pole with a soft bite pillow and be worked by the helper who's in training to be a helper. When this inexperienced helper has worked my dog before the main trainer would yell out

"Don't just stand there in front of him, move the sleeve...move side to side....if you're tired throw or kick the sleeve."

Is this going to screw up my dog?

All I want to do is get titles on my dog but I'm confused about the progression of things. The guys I have been working with outside of the club have him doing exercises. The main helper from the club says my dog isn't ready for B&H or to run the blinds but if he does it then isn't he ready to do it?

How can a dog not be ready to run blinds if he runs around them on command? He'll run around anything I tell him to run around. Is this going to hurt him?

It's hard to believe that the helpers don't know what they are doing. The main helper whom I consider the training director though we don't officially have one, works big schH events like the ADWF next weekend.

I paid my dues in the club at the beginning of March. During the last session, I requested my money to be returned so that I could quit the club and just work with one group of guys to lessen the confusion but they said NO. So now I'm a member for a year, how do I know what my dog is ready for, I assume I should just trust the helpers.

[lblax]

working on a pole is a good way to make a dog strong and make a strong dog stronger just because nathanial worked your dog once and says he is ready for the sleeve doesnt mean that he is your helper may see things on a regular basis that needs worked on you cant do too much drive work especially with a rott.

when the helper yells at the new helper to keep moving and lots of action what is your dog doing????

if someone you considerer to be knowledgable enough to be a training director tells you your dog isnt ready for a bh there is a reason for this because titles make td's and clubs look good . when your dog shut down that says volumes about your dog(including his ability to actually do the work) and the training

its not hard to believe that helpers dont sometimes know what they are doing there are many bad helpers in the sport and in your particular area you will be hard pressed to find a good one period.

[RottsNScotts]

Jazzking, you can look at it this way...you are building a house; do you want a puny, skinny, thin little foundation or a big thick foundation that supports all the work to come??? VBG!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

.....

All I want to do is get titles on my dog but I'm confused about the progression of things. The guys I have been working with outside of the club have him doing exercises. The main helper from the club says my dog isn't ready for B&H or to run the blinds but if he does it then isn't he ready to do it?
.....
.

The best thing that you want to do first is get a real good foundation, with people you trust, and that the training is appropriate and consistent. I don't know your helpers, but like larry said, there are a TON of helpers out there that I don't take advice from, nor would I let them catch my dog. Like I said, I don't know your helpers, but it's really important that YOU don't get confused, and that the DOG doesn't get confused.

[jazzking1971]

I understand, but the confusion comes in when four others who have actually titled several dogs say other things so then I doubt what the helper in my club says. I get confused because I'm told by so many that I have a very nice schH prospect yet I get told the man with no experience works my dog. That makes no sense to me.

If my dog can do a full BH routine now how is he not ready?

If my dog is running blinds now, how is he not ready?

If my dog is biting HARD as in will bruise you if you are wearing something than an intermediate sleeve, should he still be on a pillow?

If four people with more than 15 years of experience each tell me I should be doing the protection exercises rather than pole work then isn't he ready?

Nobody in the club has actually titled a dog should that be a concern? I know little about schH and tend to want to listen to the guys who have actually been there and done that but I also know the one helper in my club is a guy I have trusted for the time I have known him. BUT he doesn't want the other helper working his dog. Why is that guy ok for my dog but not his? Are these valid concerns or am I being a knucklehead?

We had a nice session this morning with the TD from the Phoenix schH club. And though I have a not so nice cut on my calf from a whip the guy said "Them shorts don't work too good for training but that's good efffing Rottweiler"

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

We had a nice session this morning with the TD from the Phoenix schH club. And though I have a not so nice cut on my calf from a whip the guy said "Them shorts don't work too good for training but that's good efffing Rottweiler"

maybe you should think about the cut on your leg and really do some resurch on how some of the rottweilers started by that club turned out. i think you may be shocked . so believe what you want everyones dog is a sch3 in there own back yard and i personally think that a 15 month old rott with a spanking new handler in clubs that dont have td's with tons of experiance isnt actually doing as well as you let on. the bottom line is for what ever reason YOUR DOG TOTALLY SHUT DOWN i have seen some phases of the training be effected by poor desicions in other phases but i have never seen a dog that was capable of doing the work totally shut down. as rotts and scotts said you must build a strong foundation to keep the training together. to me when your dog shut down it tells me you have done a poor job on the foundation training of your dog because in times of stress or ultimate confusion the dog always reverts back to what it learned in the foundation training.

[Mick Trainer]

If my dog can do a full BH routine now how is he not ready? Just becasue the dog can perform the routine in a certain scenario doesn't mean he is ready for it overall. The TD may see something that you dont and feel that the dog "may" fail if it is not worked on when under the pressure of trailing. If you havn't trialed before the first time you will act differently than noraml and the dog will pick up on this and this can cause many problems in the process. I would take his advice on this. However you could also always ask the question.

If my dog is running blinds now, how is he not ready? Becasue he is running the blinds doesn't mean much. He could be a long way from being ready if the TD wants to show the dog and club for being good and want to work on many subtle things (like looking into every blind, so many dogs just run past the empty blinds, so annoying) to make sure the dog achieves what he should.

If my dog is biting HARD as in will bruise you if you are wearing something than an intermediate sleeve, should he still be on a pillow? Yeah maybe. What equipment you are using really isn't that relivant except the achieve the training goal one is looking for. Many novice handlers are keen to get their dog onto the sleeve, trial arm, but in real terms this means nothing and a dog could really be trained it's whole life on a tug and still be a serious dog. Dont worry so much regards equipment but ask the TD why he is using what ever it is he is using.

If four people with more than 15 years of experience each tell me I should be doing the protection exercises rather than pole work then isn't he ready? Who knows? Who are these people really. 15 years experience doing what really? Trialing one or two dogs or actually doing helper work. I meet so called dog experts every day who believe that as they have had dogs for x number of years that they are experts. Now for most people that make mean they have owned/handled 6 dogs in their life. That is an afternoon for most trainers. If they have been doing helper work and have achieved in this then it is a relivant concern, if they have owned and trialed a few dogs not so much. Again ask the TD why he is doing what he is doing.

Nobody in the club has actually titled a dog should that be a concern? Yep. If the club is brand new etc then of course not but if it has been a round for a few years it is a concern.

Why is that guy ok for my dog but not his? It isn't. This and the idea of a green helper working your inexperienced dog truly concern me. Any green helper should be working experienced, solid dogs, not inexperienced dogs such as yours. All my trainers start on dogs like my older male Rott who has been there and seen that a thousand times and knows more about the routine than the new helper and who really couldn't be stuffed up without a huge amount of work.

And though I have a not so nice cut on my calf from a whip I'm sorry but did this mean that the guy hit you with the whip? If so that is not good. He should have more clue where the whip tip is than that. What would happen if it hit the nose of your dog? How much work would it take to get a green dog back if that happned? A Lot. You should be able to wear what ever you want.

Mick.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

If my dog can do a full BH routine now how is he not ready? Just becasue the dog can perform the routine in a certain scenario doesn't mean he is ready for it overall. The TD may see something that you dont and feel that the dog "may" fail if it is not worked on when under the pressure of trailing. If you havn't trialed before the first time you will act differently than noraml and the dog will pick up on this and this can cause many problems in the process. I would take his advice on this. However you could also always ask the question.

If my dog is running blinds now, how is he not ready? Becasue he is running the blinds doesn't mean much. He could be a long way from being ready if the TD wants to show the dog and club for being good and want to work on many subtle things (like looking into every blind, so many dogs just run past the empty blinds, so annoying) to make sure the dog achieves what he should.

If my dog is biting HARD as in will bruise you if you are wearing something than an intermediate sleeve, should he still be on a pillow? Yeah maybe. What equipment you are using really isn't that relivant except the achieve the training goal one is looking for. Many novice handlers are keen to get their dog onto the sleeve, trial arm, but in real terms this means nothing and a dog could really be trained it's whole life on a tug and still be a serious dog. Dont worry so much regards equipment but ask the TD why he is using what ever it is he is using.

If four people with more than 15 years of experience each tell me I should be doing the protection exercises rather than pole work then isn't he ready? Who knows? Who are these people really. 15 years experience doing what really? Trialing one or two dogs or actually doing helper work. I meet so called dog experts every day who believe that as they have had dogs for x number of years that they are experts. Now for most people that make mean they have owned/handled 6 dogs in their life. That is an afternoon for most trainers. If they have been doing helper work and have achieved in this then it is a relivant concern, if they have owned and trialed a few dogs not so much. Again ask the TD why he is doing what he is doing.

Nobody in the club has actually titled a dog should that be a concern? Yep. If the club is brand new etc then of course not but if it has been a round for a few years it is a concern.

Why is that guy ok for my dog but not his? It isn't. This and the idea of a green helper working your inexperienced dog truly concern me. Any green helper should be working experienced, solid dogs, not inexperienced dogs such as yours. All my trainers start on dogs like my older male Rott who has been there and seen that a thousand times and knows more about the routine than the new helper and who really couldn't be stuffed up without a huge amount of work.

And though I have a not so nice cut on my calf from a whip I'm sorry but did this mean that the guy hit you with the whip? If so that is not good. He should have more clue where the whip tip is than that. What would happen if it hit the nose of your dog? How much work would it take to get a green dog back if that happned? A Lot. You should be able to wear what ever you want.

Mick.

Wow Mick...excellent advice. Wish you lived in the US. Do you ever get over across the pond?

[jazzking1971]

Thanks Mick.

First of all the club doesn't have a TD and the guy that I think should be the TD (feurhaus) reads these boards and hasn't addressed this thread even though I know he's read it several times. I also know the other helper (mikoman) has been reading this thread and has not given input. Perhaps they will now that I've called them out.

The guys that I train with on the side are guys that are well respected in the local schH community. The main helpers knows them and wanted two of them to train with our club. In fact the training helper I worked with the most was introduced to me by the main helper and he was called out to the rottie club to work his dog because he didn't trust the other helper enough to do it. The other guy I train with is another more experienced guy that the main helper from the rott club has worked with before. He allows him to work his dog.

When I talk about guys that have titled dogs I'm talking guys that have title 23 dogs between two people, rotties, mals and GSDs. There is only one dog in the rottie club that has a BH and that dog almost failed according to the handler.

While I am new to schH I am not new to dogs, I know enough about OB that commands must be executed. I see dogs in our club where the handler says "fido come here, sitz... c'mon sitz, come, fido..here..sitz, here...ahhh fiiiiiido!!!! c'mon!!! platz and then the handler looks at the helper and says let's just get on with it" This is the dog with a BH. I watch his OB and for example I notice when he heels the dog is a good 18" from the handler. Incorrect FCI about faces etc... I maybe green to schutzhund but I know enough to know the rules and what the judges wants to see. I train my own dog with this perspective in mind.

Getting stung by the whip... well, it very well could have been intentional. He's not exactly what I would call I nice guy and he mentioned my shorts twice before we even started the session. Maybe you've heard of Wayne Walcott and maybe you haven't but he's well respected in these parts as a helper for his "black magic". This guy was the TD for the most prominent schH club in the area and he's helped title 100s of dogs. He told me today, "I haven't seen his tracking but schH1 on that dog in two months." He didn't know the age of the dog nor does he know he doesn't have his BH.

Why do I think my dog is ready for the BH? Because his behavior has been generalized in highly public places. Heeling around a group of four people is nothing compared to heeling around a mall with 100s of people. His down under distraction is stellar...again proofed in high distraction areas including while other protection work was going on the training field. Personally I don't have issues with performance. I am a jazz musician and have been in front of 1000s of people, in several countries for the past 20 years. I don't have nerves issues in front of people unless somebody is threatening me.


Thank you to everybody for helping me work through my concerns.

[Mick Trainer]

I think you give the answer to what you should od in your own reply. If there are better people around than the ones you are training with why are you not training with them?

Do you ever get over across the pond? I have been trying to get to the US for about 5 years now and each year somehting comes up and it is hard for me to go for any length of time due to being the head trainer and it being my business so leaving it for long is not a possability but I really do want to get there if I can. There is a US based trainer I want to work with and a German based trainer who has offered for me to work with him for a few weeks. Both of which I want to do in the next 2-3 years.

Mick.

[lblax]

His down under distraction is stellar...again proofed in high distraction areas including while other protection work was going on the training field.

so you were doing the long down while other dogs were doing protection??????

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by lblax

so you were doing the long down while other dogs were doing protection??????

yes, in sight but a considerable distance away and on a lead. We did that for about 2-3 minutes the other dog came off the field and then he got a bite before we started our protection exercise. His long down is quite solid and has been since he was 9mo old.

Minus the protection work, the exercises we do are more than just a routine, at least for me. IF we can get a schH3 then I will consider the PP arena.