what makes a dog stop working?

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by hennie400

One of my dogs is soft and shuts down easily and I have to handle her quite differently to my other dogs. Once I figured out what makes her tick she has responded very well.

Patience, praise and fun has always worked well for me and my dogs.

This was the first time I lost my cool with the dog and he was like WTF!! who is this guy? He's cool with me again and was happily doing his morning OB for the food dish.

[Mattweiser]

I am a little late to this thread but want to restate a few thoughts:

1. 2 times a week for protection for a Rott is more than enough
2. "at home" protection work is not a great idea for adolescent Rottweiler males... puppies, yes... older dogs, sure.... but there is such a potential for handler stress to crop up.
3. Other clubs that train protection more often are likely Mal/GSD clubs... Rottweilers are different mentally... not bad... just different... ignoring this fact, is like ignoring laws of physics.

If your dog is refusing to do simple exercises, and you have ruled out physical issues... it is time for compulsion.... period. A 12-20 month old Rott is a teenager.... he will need to be "level set" as to what is required/demanded of him... Otherwise, good luck with that SchH2 ....

M

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by Skip

Like I said, I'd like to know what individual clubs in your area train regularly in protection 5 times a week?

I never said there were any. I have only said that dogs can handle more than 2x per week in bitework and I believe I said something like 3-5. You are the one who chose to bring in to the conversation "I've never heard of such a thing of clubs training more than 2x..." "how could that possibly be?" "It just must be your area"... Great job, moving the discussion from how a dog can handle pressure to 'how many times a club trains'.

Originally Posted by Skip

I "get out" plenty, and MOST of us HAVE to "get out" to train for protection work since we don't live with our helpers.

Most of my hours & miles committed to my dog's accomplishments have been away from my house and not using my husband as a helper... and that is how I know that people do in fact train their dogs in bitework more than 2x per week... even when it's the least bit convenient.... most of my 10 minute bitework sessions have begun and ended with at least 60 minutes of driving... and many times more (when I lived in Los Angeles).

If you'd like to get back on your original topic of dog's handling pressure in bitework by training more than 2x per week... let me know.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by Mattweiser

Rottweilers are different mentally... not bad... just different... ignoring this fact, is like ignoring laws of physics.

I agree, generally speaking rottweilers are 'different' when it comes to the sport, but to make training decisions for a dog based on it's breed is not wise. Train the dog for what the dog is showing you it can handle and be smart about it and I think you'll have a much more successful training program. This is part of the finessing I mentioned earlier...

I'll also disagree that 2x per week is not necessarily "more than enough" bitework for a rottweiler. It can and will vary for each dog...

Welcome back... haven't seen you in awhile... Hope you've been well.

[Mattweiser]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

..... but to make training decisions for a dog based on it's breed is not wise. Train the dog for what the dog is showing you it can handle and be smart about it and I think you'll have a much more successful training program.

I agree... I simply stated that, as the inverse of the argument of "I know a club that does X,Y,Z.." isn't a good baseline either...

The biggest challenge is that, when you "don't know"... you just don't know. Reading the dog is always key, and the rub is that if you can't read the dog, you typically aren't aware that you cannot.

Originally Posted by laurlitt

Welcome back... haven't seen you in awhile... Hope you've been well.

Thanks! I have been well... life is funny how it gets in the way.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

....

If you'd like to get back on your original topic of dog's handling pressure in bitework by training more than 2x per week... let me know.

Letting you know. Well so far, it seems like a lot of working people have agreed with me, so there's some high percentage agreement in what I said. Since you seem to be in the lowest minority, I was going to ask you to back up YOUR logic, but I won't do that. With so damn few people working rotts in schutzhund in the US, I'm glad to see any successes. Alright, let's get past the pressure angle for a moment, but I'll get back to it. I'm sure you've seen MANY flash-in-the-pans new people show up for the first time with a rott at club, and just want to start into bitework. It's a commitment that can't be rushed for the vast majority of owners. Do I know rotts that could probably handle 3 bite sessions a week, sure. But I don't want to mislead owners and tell them you can go find 2 or 3 different clubs, TD's, and training helpers so that they can do bitework 5 times a week. There are 3 parts to schutzhund, and I'll stand by my statement that for 99.9% it is safer for the dog, more consistent improvment for the dog AND handler to find a good club with a good TD and helpers and keep the bitework to no more than twice a week. This is not a race for me or the dog. Also, I know my TD would be offended if I also went to other TD's for bitework every week, and I would not blame him. A good TD can do an awful lot of good bitework training on any good prospect if you are consistent at twice a week, and a bad one can ruin the bitework. As far as the pressure angle, with so few rotts doing well in schutzhund, I think it is just good logic to go slow and be careful. I've only been in the sport a few years, and I've only titled a couple dogs, but I've kept my eyes and ears open.

[dmoniz]

I'll put in my 2 cents worth. I agree that one should not be going to many different clubs and helpers just to get in more training. My club also doesn't have a designated TD, our helper is our TD in spirit I guess you would say as he does not actually have that title. He trains at 4 different clubs on 3 different fields. He trains at all three fields 2 times per week each (one field he does 2 sessions in one day). Because I can train on multiple fields with the same helper/TD, I do. One of the fields is 15 minutes from my house so I go there twice a week, I go to one other field (2 hours away) once per week for protection and once per week for OB when there is a class going on. We have been going 3 times per week since Cain was ~11 months old. This seems to work for him, I have never seen him shut down in any of the 3 disciplines. Eventually we will go to the third field, but this will not likely be on a regular basis as it is another 3 hours from the field that is 2 hours away. I do feel my situation is slightly different as I am able to see the same helper/TD in all 3 places, so I get multiple field experience without affecting our training program. I think this is important to note: If you are seeing multiple helpers/TDs, make sure the one knows what the other is working on. You can screw a dog up extremely fast if the 2 programs are not compatable.

[jazzking1971]

Skip, how old was your dog when you earned your respective titles?

at 15mo he just now doing full schH1 tracks with food help on the corners and a jackpot. I have been in the habit of leaving a few weiner slices here and there. He doesn't always get them but he does the track correctly 9/10 times and trainers think he'd score low 90s we've had two sessions where they thought it would have been high 90s if not perfect - slow and methodical

At what age were you doing retrieves?

Thanks

[jazzking1971]

what's the issue with having multiple helpers? I'm new to this but doesn't it help to generalize things as long as everybody is on the same page? We've worked with different helpers as my dog has been progessing but over the last three months we've had two main helpers and both of them understand rotties. There have been occasional guest helpers along the way but I have been telling them what I want them to do. Between the two helpers, one does prey prey prey and other channels prey into defense back into prey. We're talking relatively light pressure here... hand over the head, stick over the head, no hits, hand to the sides, mock kicks etc...

[dmoniz]

Multiple helpers is fine and important, as long as each one knows what the other is doing. If they don't and one helper is trying to teach a motivational out while the other it trying to teach a compulsive out you will have one very confused dog. We have 4 helpers who are all working with my main helper, so my dog is able to see many helpers all under the supervision of my main helper/TD.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by Skip

Letting you know. Well so far, it seems like a lot of working people have agreed with me, so there's some high percentage agreement in what I said. Since you seem to be in the lowest minority, I was going to ask you to back up YOUR logic, but I won't do that.

Are you serious?

NO ONE has agreed with your statement that rottweilers can’t handle 2 sessions in bitework per week MAX due to Pressure. That is quite an ‘extreme’ stance to take. Your statement implies that that there is NO WAY a dog could do more than 2 sessions.. Period… It is very frustrating when someone can’t stick to the actual logic of the conversation and clouds it with faulty arguments.

Larry said “2 times a week is plenty of bite work “ and “if for no other reason than muscle repair and rest i like to do no more that 2-3 times per week regardless of the dogs desire to work”

I’m sorry, but I fail to see where he claims that a dog can’t handle more than 2x per week MAX due to not being able to handle pressure.

Matt said “2 times a week for protection for a Rott is more than enough”

Again, no where do I see that Matt said that a Rott can NOT handle more than 2x per week b/c the dog can’t handle the pressure.

So… I have yet to see ANYONE who has agreed with your initial statement that I commented on. Do you not understand the discussion we are having…? I have not stated that a rottweiler MUST have 5 times per week or that ALL can handle it… but that Rottweilers CAN handle more than 2x… especially a well bred working Rottweiler… they do exist…

But from my own personal household I currently have 4 rottweilers (ages 14 months to 9.5 years) that ALL can handle the pressure of more than 2X per week bitework sessions. Our good friend who trains with us has 3 rottweilers (ages 10 months to 5 years)… ALL of them can handle the pressure of more than 2X per week. I guarantee her SchH3 male who passed away 4 years ago could handle 7X per week and would welcome the opportunity. The 4 rottweilers that we trained w/ back at our club in CA also ALL could handle more than 2X per week… I’m sure I could scrape up plenty of other examples of rottweilers current and past who could handle the pressure of bitework more than 2x per week…

As for all your other comments after the one I quoted... this are all extra topics that weren't part of your original statement... and my response...

A final reminder of my original statement “Many a dog (including young green dogs) can handle 3-5 times per week” I think you’d be hard-pressed to find someone who would say that statement as a whole is FALSE, yet you have managed to dance around it.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

Larry said “2 times a week is plenty of bite work “ and “if for no other reason than muscle repair and rest i like to do no more that 2-3 times per week regardless of the dogs desire to work”

I’m sorry, but I fail to see where he claims that a dog can’t handle more than 2x per week MAX due to not being able to handle pressure.

Matt said “2 times a week for protection for a Rott is more than enough”

Again, no where do I see that Matt said that a Rott can NOT handle more than 2x per week b/c the dog can’t handle the pressure.

.

for me its not a pressure thing personally if the dog cant stand the pressure(mentally) then it probably shouldnt be doing the bite work, although even when a dog is really driven to do the bite work there is a certain amount of pressure involved in it for any dog,and the problem lays with the handler not recognizing when enough is enough . but i do firmly believe that a dog is an athelete and bite work is very strenuos on the body and the body needs to recover so im a firm believer that 2 to three times a week is plenty and mix in the other training inbetween days to work differant muscles and let the others rest. i certainly disagree with the op's time schedule on getting his dog titled and i certainly disagree with working a young dog 5 days a week in protection also if you notice several of the newbies always refer to schutzhund as my trainers or schutzhund class instead of refering to it as a club enviorment which sets off an alarm for me with the possibilitie that the trainer/helper is charging them for sessions . if i were the op i would rethink my schedule on this dog and really think hard about a dog that would shut down completely over a correction.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

Are you serious?

NO ONE has agreed with your statement that rottweilers can’t handle 2 sessions in bitework per week MAX due to Pressure. That is quite an ‘extreme’ stance to take. Your statement implies that that there is NO WAY a dog could do more than 2 sessions.. Period… It is very frustrating when someone can’t stick to the actual logic of the conversation and clouds it with faulty arguments.

Larry said “2 times a week is plenty of bite work “ and “if for no other reason than muscle repair and rest i like to do no more that 2-3 times per week regardless of the dogs desire to work”

I’m sorry, but I fail to see where he claims that a dog can’t handle more than 2x per week MAX due to not being able to handle pressure.

Matt said “2 times a week for protection for a Rott is more than enough”

Again, no where do I see that Matt said that a Rott can NOT handle more than 2x per week b/c the dog can’t handle the pressure.

So… I have yet to see ANYONE who has agreed with your initial statement that I commented on. Do you not understand the discussion we are having…? I have not stated that a rottweiler MUST have 5 times per week or that ALL can handle it… but that Rottweilers CAN handle more than 2x… especially a well bred working Rottweiler… they do exist…

But from my own personal household I currently have 4 rottweilers (ages 14 months to 9.5 years) that ALL can handle the pressure of more than 2X per week bitework sessions. Our good friend who trains with us has 3 rottweilers (ages 10 months to 5 years)… ALL of them can handle the pressure of more than 2X per week. I guarantee her SchH3 male who passed away 4 years ago could handle 7X per week and would welcome the opportunity. The 4 rottweilers that we trained w/ back at our club in CA also ALL could handle more than 2X per week… I’m sure I could scrape up plenty of other examples of rottweilers current and past who could handle the pressure of bitework more than 2x per week…

As for all your other comments after the one I quoted... this are all extra topics that weren't part of your original statement... and my response...

A final reminder of my original statement “Many a dog (including young green dogs) can handle 3-5 times per week” I think you’d be hard-pressed to find someone who would say that statement as a whole is FALSE, yet you have managed to dance around it.

Pressure getting to you? OK, that was a little funny. Haven't danced around a damn thing. I wanted to discuss all my reasons for the statement, INCLUDING the fact that the dog doesn't need pushed with that much PRESSURE to progress very nicely. Maybe the others have not come out and said your EXACT words, but they have agreed that 2 times is the best. Everyone that you quoted. Now go ahead again and find a different way to re-word that, and we'll see who is dancing here. Train 7 times a week if you want to. This is getting rediculous. So there is NO DANCING inferred, my opinion is 2 times a week for protection training is a safer schedule for the vast majority of rotts, but since I don't know every rott, have only been in the sport for a few years, it's my opinion, but it's backed up by respected trainers and helpers I know, and more than a few here that I don't know. Congrats with your dog Maddie. I saw the SchH titles on her. Trying to keep this short so you have time for your next protection training tonite. Once again, that was a little funny. Seriously, whatever works for you Laurie.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by lblax

for me its not a pressure thing personally if the dog cant stand the pressure(mentally) then it probably shouldnt be doing the bite work, although even when a dog is really driven to do the bite work there is a certain amount of pressure involved in it for any dog,and the problem lays with the handler not recognizing when enough is enough .

Larry, I think we're in agreement... I certainly don't encourage overworking any dog that needs a mental or physical break... Nor do I think working a young dog 5X per week is necessarily good (or necessary)...

My only point (that some people simply can't understand) is that Rottweilers can handle more than 2 sessions per week...

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by Skip

Pressure getting to you? OK, that was a little funny. Haven't danced around a damn thing. I wanted to discuss all my reasons for the statement, INCLUDING the fact that the dog doesn't need pushed with that much PRESSURE to progress very nicely. Maybe the others have not come out and said your EXACT words, but they have agreed that 2 times is the best. Everyone that you quoted. Now go ahead again and find a different way to re-word that, and we'll see who is dancing here. Train 7 times a week if you want to. This is getting rediculous. So there is NO DANCING inferred, my opinion is 2 times a week for protection training is a safer schedule for the vast majority of rotts, but since I don't know every rott, have only been in the sport for a few years, it's my opinion, but it's backed up by respected trainers and helpers I know, and more than a few here that I don't know. Congrats with your dog Maddie. I saw the SchH titles on her. Trying to keep this short so you have time for your next protection training tonite. Once again, that was a little funny. Seriously, whatever works for you Laurie.

Skip, it's not about what works for me... It's just a simple statement that Rottweilers CAN handle more than 2 sessions per week... (and I have numerous examples to back it up) It's not about that all Rottweilers MUST train more than 2X per week, or that I train bitework more than 2X per week (although I do when the opportunity arises)... It was simply a response to a statement/opinion made by you that has evolved thruout your posts to take on a meaning that was different from your original statement... I'm done w/ this...