what makes a dog stop working?

[jazzking1971]

thanks Laurlitt. The real reason I'm looking to do schH1 in July is because I will be back home visting with my family for two weeks. Only my parents have seen the dog but when he was looking more like a puppy. They've never seen him work. Plan A is BH at end of April schH1 in July. Plan B is BH in July. My orig plan was BH (fri) and sch1 (sat) in Nov but he's been doing the BH routine for weeks and the guys tell me he's ready now.

[jazzking1971]

thanks skip. I'm feeling that he's over loaded too. I'm probably going to the club tonight and then no training for a week or two.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

thanks Laurlitt. The real reason I'm looking to do schH1 in July is because I will be back home visting with my family for two weeks. Only my parents have seen the dog but when he was looking more like a puppy. They've never seen him work. Plan A is BH at end of April schH1 in July. Plan B is BH in July. My orig plan was BH (fri) and sch1 (sat) in Nov but he's been doing the BH routine for weeks and the guys tell me he's ready now.

So the trial in July will be 'away' from your normal training field at someone else's club? in another state? This is a whole other level of 'rushing' and 'stressing' a dog. You are risking a really bad trialing expereince for your dog that may be very slow in the repair process... It is your job to set your dog up for SUCCESS... Please reconsider not putting your young dog thru this situation. If you are a novice handler you will need ALL the support you can get from your local club environment (no matter the dog's age). I would consider comprimising your goal to BH (in April if you think you can do it???) and SchH1 in Nov, especially if Nov. is your local club.

What would be a really great experience for your dog is to go to the club near your parents and ask if you can 'train' with him on a strange field. Do some fun obedience (let it be positive). Work w/ your current training director and ask him what would be a good exercise (protection) for him to do in front of a new helper on a new field... I would take the training back a few steps when going to a new field and make it successful for him... You will get so much more out this experience that trialing w/ him away from home... He may have all the drives in the world, but he's still a young DOG..

At the same age... Maddie would have been considered ready, but not 'READY'... if that makes sense... not trying to discourage you... just be reasonable.

[jazzking1971]

Well the trial in Nov is not at our club either. We train on four different fields now. And since I've been training we've worked on seven different fields and have had seven differnet helpers. We've also worked in warehouses and dimly lit parks. We do short OB exercises every "odd" place I can and in different enviroments ie; heavy rain and hail.

I don't know if he's ready for sch1 in July, it's just an idea and a goal for now.

Our club doesn't have a trial on the books for this year, maybe a BST towards Dec. I have no choice but to train for working on any field which is what we are doing.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

Well the trial in Nov is not at our club either. We train on four different fields now. And since I've been training we've worked on seven different fields and have had seven differnet helpers. We've also worked in warehouses and dimly lit parks. We do short OB exercises every "odd" place I can and in different enviroments ie; heavy rain and hail.

I don't know if he's ready for sch1 in July, it's just an idea and a goal for now.

Our club doesn't have a trial on the books for this year, maybe a BST towards Dec. I have no choice but to train for working on any field which is what we are doing.

Why so many different fields and helpers? Different clubs also?

[makjamz]

Some excellent suggestions on this topic.

Checkup at the Vet may be an idea. But I would venture to say he is young and if you have been training him for several months - he is burned out.

Personally, I prefer not do any formal SchH type training until the dogs are old enough to get their HD/ED clearances. I just let my dogs grow in mind and body, but still have them working on good manners socializing and playing. I do not let the dogs play too much together, as they can be a bit rough, and also bond to eachother. I am the focus of their universe.

I feed kibble which is 42/20 - more energy food.

As others here have said: - He is young and probably fried - So it is important to build him up gradually - to get where you were. Give him a break, then come back slowly with short training periods. If he does something good ONE time - stop - go to the next thing. I would not recommend any compulsion at this time.

For me it is difficult to comment on these topics by the forum - it would be better to see the dog in person, and you working with the dog, the situation etc. The dog's training schedule should be based on the progress of the INDIVIDUAL dog - not the dates of the trials. One title at a time.

Your Club training director should be helping you with this issues. If the TD is not helping - you might be best to find another club. I trust you can work it all out - he sounds like a promising young dog.

Mary-Ann

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by Skip

Why so many different fields and helpers? Different clubs also?

well, I was with one club but the drama was too much so half of us split with the helper and started up another club. The original club trained on two different field. Our club has trained on three different fields.

I also work with a group of independant schH guys who liked my dog enough to allow me to train with them as green as I am. They can't stand Rotties but like my dog. One of them lived with Balabanov and studied with him for weeks. His ot vitosha female won the trial that our original club put on. We train at various field that is dictated by availability. There are three helpers in this group.

We've also visited other places with different helpers and have had other helpers work with our club. The main helper in our group in a national level helper and a rottie person. He's well connected and often invites his schH helper buddies to train with us.

I don't know how ideal this situation is but it is what it is and my dog is not appearing to be helper dependant.

[jazzking1971]

We have no TD in our club. The OB and tracking is up to the handler. Contrary to what it appears, we're not training to my plan we've been training because he's been responding well and so far, he current level of progress is allowing me and others to think he'll be ready for the schedule. There are no issues with slowing down if needed. He's shown that he loves to work and the protection sessions are pretty short (10-15min) sometimes less.

We've been working through B&H issues with him laying down. The last couple of sessions, he's been up, so he gets a quick bite and put up.

I let the dogs play in the morning before work and then they are crated for the day. They spend enough energy that I don't have to run them before I leave. At night my competition dog is usually with me somewhere and he's away from the other dogs. Two of the other dogs in the house are old and don't play.(pugs) and the other two play with each other and my wife walks them. I don't mind what they do as long as they are Obedient and well mannered. My male is who I focus on and we definately have a strong bond. He's what would be called a velcro dog.

Originally Posted by makjamz

Some excellent suggestions on this topic.

Checkup at the Vet may be an idea. But I would venture to say he is young and if you have been training him for several months - he is burned out.

Personally, I prefer not do any formal SchH type training until the dogs are old enough to get their HD/ED clearances. I just let my dogs grow in mind and body, but still have them working on good manners socializing and playing. I do not let the dogs play too much together, as they can be a bit rough, and also bond to eachother. I am the focus of their universe.

I feed kibble which is 42/20 - more energy food.

As others here have said: - He is young and probably fried - So it is important to build him up gradually - to get where you were. Give him a break, then come back slowly with short training periods. If he does something good ONE time - stop - go to the next thing. I would not recommend any compulsion at this time.

For me it is difficult to comment on these topics by the forum - it would be better to see the dog in person, and you working with the dog, the situation etc. The dog's training schedule should be based on the progress of the INDIVIDUAL dog - not the dates of the trials. One title at a time.

Your Club training director should be helping you with this issues. If the TD is not helping - you might be best to find another club. I trust you can work it all out - he sounds like a promising young dog.

Mary-Ann

[lgslgs]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

This morning something is still up. I asked him to heel with me through the house for his food dish. He just sat there and wouldn't do anything. I ended up putting his dish in the office and called him. He did a perfect recall so I fed him and he ate as fast as he usually does.

Right now he's out in the back with the other dog and they are running around and playing keep away. I don't think he's sick.

Any chance he's giving himself phantom commands?

One of our dogs was so eager to please that he would occasionally come up with his own idea for a new command and start obeying it out of the blue. One time it was "sit on the stairs" and for a few days we'd find him perched on a middle stair waiting for a release command.

I'm sure we must have had a role in leading him toward that phantom command, but we never did figure out how we could have triggered it and why it was suddenly a very important command for Guinness to obey.

Guinness would usually create a phantom command once or twice a year, and did it throughout his life. He's our only dog to do so, and happened to be the one who had this amazingly strong need to work and eagerness to please.

Lynda

[jazzking1971]

I was just talking with one of my training buds he thinks my dog shut down over a correction and lost his confidence in me. *Edit* forgot to mention he stopped by my house. The dog plays fine with him and does OB for him.

I remember the moment, we were doing some heeling in the middle of street (secluded). Four people came out to throw a ball. He looked at the ball instead of me and I gave him a pop for it. He was on a flat collar and it was by no means a hard correction. For whatever reason he shut down because of it. He ran off into the garage and wouldn't do anything else.

We're not going to do anything but be buds for awhile. No training nothing for a couple of weeks. I thnk I'll bring him out to the desert and let him run a bit.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

well, I was with one club but the drama was too much so half of us split with the helper and started up another club. The original club trained on two different field. Our club has trained on three different fields.

I also work with a group of independant schH guys who liked my dog enough to allow me to train with them as green as I am. They can't stand Rotties but like my dog. One of them lived with Balabanov and studied with him for weeks. His ot vitosha female won the trial that our original club put on. We train at various field that is dictated by availability. There are three helpers in this group.

We've also visited other places with different helpers and have had other helpers work with our club. The main helper in our group in a national level helper and a rottie person. He's well connected and often invites his schH helper buddies to train with us.

I don't know how ideal this situation is but it is what it is and my dog is not appearing to be helper dependant.

Man, NO training Director? I would be going super slow with the training then.
All these guys you train with have national level experience, and no training director? A good training director is super important. Where did all these guys get their training? None of them have a TD now?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I was just talking with one of my training buds he thinks my dog shut down over a correction and lost his confidence in me. .

in simple terms youve over worked your dog/2 times a week is plenty of bite work/ youve caused conflict in your dog by giving your dog bites your self/ and if your dog shut down over a correction means one of 2 things either your overly ruff on the dog(but earlier you said you train with no compulsion) or your dog isnt simply strong enough to continue on in the training or your style of training anyway. dont hold to much into what someone is telling you about studying ivan because there is one thing for certain you will never see ivan train a rott.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by Skip

Man, NO training Director? I would be going super slow with the training then.
All these guys you train with have national level experience, and no training director? A good training director is super important. Where did all these guys get their training? None of them have a TD now?

I guess I consider THEM my TDs. These guys have been doing schH for years and use each other to watch for issues. There are a few clubs that don't have TDs. For the Rott Club we just decided that we didn't need one. We all have the ability to help each other. I'm the green one.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I guess I consider THEM my TDs. These guys have been doing schH for years and use each other to watch for issues. There are a few clubs that don't have TDs. For the Rott Club we just decided that we didn't need one. We all have the ability to help each other. I'm the green one.

I just want to say again how important it is to have one, good, TD and several good, reliable helpers. Very different than just knowing how to do helper work. I know a LOT of people that have been involved with SchH for years, with some pretty impressively titled dogs, but they would never be TD's, and I would nevet let them catch my dog. I strongly suggest you find one good TD in your area (like where these buddies of yours got their knowledge) and get consistent. If you have a good prospect, you really need a good TD. Also, and I wasn't there when it happened, and I'm only saying this because you stated how strong in temperment you felt your dog was, I don't see how a correction crossing the street would shut the dog down so much. Doesn't add up. Find a good TD in your area.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by Skip

I just want to say again how important it is to have one, good, TD and several good, reliable helpers. Very different than just knowing how to do helper work. I know a LOT of people that have been involved with SchH for years, with some pretty impressively titled dogs, but they would never be TD's, and I would nevet let them catch my dog. I strongly suggest you find one good TD in your area (like where these buddies of yours got their knowledge) and get consistent. If you have a good prospect, you really need a good TD. Also, and I wasn't there when it happened, and I'm only saying this because you stated how strong in temperment you felt your dog was, I don't see how a correction crossing the street would shut the dog down so much. Doesn't add up. Find a good TD in your area.

Never said I had a hard dog, infact he's pretty handler soft. I didn't expect him to shut down and didn't even consider it until I talked to others about it. Everyone I talked to said Rotties tend to do that.

As far as helper work goes there is only ONE guy that I trust and he's in the rott club. We're not working on long bites. Just B&H and escape.

When I think TD, I think in terms of overall training and not necessarily protection. We don't have a guy at the rott club that can help me with OB..somethings yes but not everything - ie; dumbell retrieves.

There are three club in AZ two are not worth joining and the other one is not an ideal situation for me though I wouldn't mind having access to their equipment because they are relocating to within four miles from my house.

I train with the Rott club that has the national level helper. I train with the other guys who are members of a club that I do not belong to... we mostly work on getting my OB exercises together. We'll do some some escape bites and B&H but no long bites.