what makes a dog stop working?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

Larry, I think we're in agreement... I certainly don't encourage overworking any dog that needs a mental or physical break... Nor do I think working a young dog 5X per week is necessarily good (or necessary)...

My only point (that some people simply can't understand) is that Rottweilers can handle more than 2 sessions per week...

Just curious (and congrats again on maddie), but how are the other 3 rotts doing?

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by Skip

Just curious (and congrats again on maddie), but how are the other 3 rotts doing?

They are all doing well. Progressing just as I would expect for their age and level of training (and after a long winter break). The young ones will be receiving the appropriate foundation in their training before even thinking of trialing. Hannibal is severely displastic and retired.... He gets to enjoy the occasional bite and always chimes in during the other dog's work. The 5th dog (GSD) is right behind Maddie... just need trial season to be here...

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

Skip, how old was your dog when you earned your respective titles?

at 15mo he just now doing full schH1 tracks with food help on the corners and a jackpot. I have been in the habit of leaving a few weiner slices here and there. He doesn't always get them but he does the track correctly 9/10 times and trainers think he'd score low 90s we've had two sessions where they thought it would have been high 90s if not perfect - slow and methodical

At what age were you doing retrieves?

Thanks

Shane was born on 12/2/2004.
BH on 4/28/06.
OB1 on 10/22/06
AD on 10/22/06
SchH1 on 10/13/07
BST on 12/1/2007

Going for his 2 here in a couple months, then hopefully his 3 in the fall. Plan to go for his ABST after that.

What kind of retrieves are you asking about? Just starting with a ball or when we were actually doing dumbbells? We probably were doing fun retrieves with a ball within a couple months after I got him. Don't remember when we started on dumbbell retrieves, but I'd guess sometime shortly after he turned 1.

[jazzking1971]

my dog:
born 12/3/06
entered for BH 4/26/08
so that's about the same schedule so far.

though I have plans for a sch1 7/27 I don't know if he's ready. plan b is OB1. This would be a vanity trial for me because I want to show my folks the dog. I haven't entered and may not. The real plan is sch1 in Nov.

As far as retrieves, he'll fetch anything and has since he was 8wks old. I messed up with imprinting, I should have had him come and sit. He has a terrible habit of running past me and then coming to my right hand or he plows right into me by jumping at my chest - my fault.

He will bring any size dumbell but he doesn't front with any of them. I was working on just getting him to hold it and then plan to back chain. We go for short walks around the block and I make him carry whatever dumbell he chooses from the bag. I understand the play retrieve isn't 100% reliable but I really want to avoid the forced retrieve so I'm trying to work this one slowly.

Originally Posted by Skip

Shane was born on 12/2/2004.
BH on 4/28/06.
OB1 on 10/22/06
AD on 10/22/06
SchH1 on 10/13/07
BST on 12/1/2007

Going for his 2 here in a couple months, then hopefully his 3 in the fall. Plan to go for his ABST after that.

What kind of retrieves are you asking about? Just starting with a ball or when we were actually doing dumbbells? We probably were doing fun retrieves with a ball within a couple months after I got him. Don't remember when we started on dumbbell retrieves, but I'd guess sometime shortly after he turned 1.

[jazzking1971]

two nice dumbell retrieves this morning!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

two nice dumbell retrieves this morning!

I remember Shane wanted to play "chase me" with the dumbbell for a short while. I had to make sure I had another real high value toy or treat in my hand to get him to come straight back to the front.

[jazzking1971]

he's been a retrieving beast since I brought him home. Over the past couple of days we haven't done anything but play play fetch with one exception, I would make him sit in front. If he held the tug or ball, I would say YES and throw it again. If he just dropped it, I wouldn't say anything and we'd go for a short walk and then I would toss the ball.

This morning he brought the ball back twice and sat with it in his mouth. So I tried the small dumbell. Three time he didn't hold it. Then he held it, then he did it again... that was good enough so off to his crate for the day.

What method did you use to teach the dumbells? I read an article by Lonnie Olson that I liked. I've too many stories about ecollars and a string on a toe to force the retreive. I want to avoid that.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

he's been a retrieving beast since I brought him home. Over the past couple of days we haven't done anything but play play fetch with one exception, I would make him sit in front. If he held the tug or ball, I would say YES and throw it again. If he just dropped it, I wouldn't say anything and we'd go for a short walk and then I would toss the ball.

This morning he brought the ball back twice and sat with it in his mouth. So I tried the small dumbell. Three time he didn't hold it. Then he held it, then he did it again... that was good enough so off to his crate for the day.

What method did you use to teach the dumbells? I read an article by Lonnie Olson that I liked. I've too many stories about ecollars and a string on a toe to force the retreive. I want to avoid that.

Just like you probably started. First with a favorite toy, then progressing to a dumbbell. The key (for me at least) was to make sure I had a real high value item waiting to give him on the return.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I've too many stories about ecollars and a string on a toe to force the retreive. I want to avoid that.

the force retrieve is by far the best way to teach a competitive retrieve

[jazzking1971]

here's an update. The dog is working just fine. There was stress in some OB exercises and none in protection or tracking. I clearly over trained him OB-wise.

I've been doing very short OB sessions and went back to using the clicker and only doing sessions in a new green area by my house. We're almost 100% play at the moment.

I hope this thread serves as a flag for those that tend to push their dogs.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

here's an update. The dog is working just fine. There was stress in some OB exercises and none in protection or tracking. I clearly over trained him OB-wise.

When a dog shows the stress in any phase (tracking, obedience, or protection) it doesn't mean that is the phase that is causing him the stress... Being overworked/trained all around can show up as stress in any phase.... A dog being forced received may be showing the stress in tracking or a dog being worked hard on the track may show the stress in the grip, etc...

Although you could be overworking him in obedience... it could be coming from anywhere... or the cumulation of all training... so my advice still holds... don't rush (in any phase)... and overall... don't be in a rush to get that BH so soon...

[jazzking1971]

I totally understand. At this point there is no timeline for anything. Although I am entered to do a BH at the end of April is doesnt mean that I will show up.

I brought the dog out for a group of dog guys to evaluate. They all agreed the stress was in the OB they judged by watching his body language. I trained OB several times a day since he was 8wks old. We've been tracking 2-3/wk and Protection 2-3 times per week. So I'm dialing it back, with the exception of the front with dumb bell his OB is there for a sch1 routine. I need to tighten up a few things but all in all too much too fast for a young dog. I'm reminded he's a rottie, not a malinois.

"With rotties you can pound on em all day with a 2x4 but correct them too much and at the wrong time and they will shut down"

I'm not going to seriously train OB until a week before the BH, thats almost an entire month. He knows how to heel, sit and platz and his long down is stellar. What more is there to teach for the BH? It doesn't have to be sharp anyway. I might be better served just walking him around at the mall to prepare for the traffic portion of the BH.

This is the plan, almost no OB (exceptions are sit, fuss, platz etc for his bowl of food) go light on the protection and keep at it with tracking. He loves to track and he loves to bite. The helper will keep everything as prey prey prey and keep the sessions very short. I find no stress in eating sliced hot dogs on a mound of dirt.

Originally Posted by laurlitt

When a dog shows the stress in any phase (tracking, obedience, or protection) it doesn't mean that is the phase that is causing him the stress... Being overworked/trained all around can show up as stress in any phase.... A dog being forced received may be showing the stress in tracking or a dog being worked hard on the track may show the stress in the grip, etc...

Although you could be overworking him in obedience... it could be coming from anywhere... or the cumulation of all training... so my advice still holds... don't rush (in any phase)... and overall... don't be in a rush to get that BH so soon...

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jazzking1971

I totally understand. I trained OB several times a day since he was 8wks old. We've been tracking 2-3/wk and Protection 2-3 times per week. So I'm dialing it back, with the exception of the front with dumb bell his OB is there for a sch1 routine. I need to tighten up a few things but all in all too much too fast for a young dog. I'm reminded he's a rottie, not a malinois.

"With rotties you can pound on em all day with a 2x4 but correct them too much and at the wrong time and they will shut down"

.

your not serious in your way of thinking are you?????? and who told you this line

"With rotties you can pound on em all day with a 2x4 but correct them too much and at the wrong time and they will shut down"

[lblax]

So I'm dialing it back, with the exception of the front with dumb bell his OB is there for a sch1 routine. I need to tighten up a few things but all in all too much too fast for a young dog. I'm reminded he's a rottie, not a malinois.

rotty or mal there is training differences and dog differences but the concept stays the same you would have a mal overloaded also. believe it or not the front with the dumbbell and dumbbell work in general is stressful work. before dumbbell work the bite work and obedience must be strong and almost complete especially if you end up doing the forced retrieve . are you actually in a club environment where as you pay yearly dues or are you paying these guys for training on a session basis???

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by lblax

your not serious in your way of thinking are you?????? and who told you this line

I'm sure it was a joke. I took it that way.