Problem in Competitive Obedience Class

[Trouble1]

Hi folks, I would really appreciate some insight from someone familiar with rotties and AKC CD training. I have a 3 year old female rottie training to get her CD and her training is coming along very nicely. My dog has always complied with any command given on or off leash, sleeps in a crate and is exercised regularly and fed top quality food. Now to the problem, she is and always has been a very vocal rottie and grumbles regularly. We have been in a competitve obedience class for the past 7 weeks but last week my dog grumbled loudly while doing her long down stay. She was not agressive in any way, her mannerisms were all very submissive, no baring of teeth, head was down, ears relaxed, while she was in the stay and I was across the room and she held it for the requisite 5 minutes without any problem but was grumbling loudly for the first 30 seconds or so.

The instructor went absolutely ballistic about my dog (what she termed as "growling") but what sounded like a rottie grumbling to me. I have owned 3 other rotties and they all rumbled at one time or another. The instructor then intimated that my dog was not a good rottie. The instructor is very experienced in competitive obedience but only trains golden retrievers, (the rest of the class is goldens, poodles, duck tollers and such) however, the instructor also owns the local training facility and has now barred me from competing in obedience or sanction matches at her facility. I'm pretty discouraged at this point as I have tried everything to get the rumbling to stop including reinforcing my already strong alpha position to the point now of unintentionally intimidating my dog. I have always been the alpha and my dog is not aggressive to other dogs, cats, kids or adults and is wonderful to bring out in public.

I would really appreciate some advice or feedback.
Thanks very much,
Chris

[Ayoka]

There is an AKC rule that says "the judge will excuse a dog that attacks another dog in the ring or appears dangerous to other dogs in the ring" and I could see how a grumble may be interpreted as dangerous - even if it is ranter innocuous. however, I was not aware that a person/club COULD deny entry to their trial unless it was a limited entry/specialty club thing or a dog had ben DQ'd excused.

In my opinion a dog that means to attack/bite another dog will do so. If she grumbled but wasn't staring at other dogs and held position - she clearly didn't mean to attack.

I wonder if the grumbling is an attention getting thing which you may be inadvertantly giving her by trying to get her to stop it? Or, maybe reinforcing a good down when she grumbles is reinforcing the grubmle AND the down?

If she's only grumbling during certain exercises what about ignoring the grumbly ones and rewarding the quiet ones?

[Cdn1050]

Is there another club that you can train with, preferrably not with someone who focuses on goldens. I had a not so fun experience when I enrolled my Rottie into an obedience class where the trainer breeds and trains goldens. Not any issues with grumbling in public, but their old school methods of training.

The trainer I have now has Australian Shepherds and used to own Dobbies. Australian Shepherds like to bark a lot, and I remember my trainer saying that some barking is aloud in the ring, just not excessive barking.

If you work on the quiet command and extra reward for a quiet down stay, you might be able to talk to the trainer in reconsidering.

I don't think that is fair what she did to you. There is a Great Dane who is vocal (not aggressive) and we just ignore the vocalness. My dog is also vocal but just at home when playing.

[hcelsa]

A facility owner does have the right to deny entry (especially in the case of matches) to individuals, as the facility is their private property (the rules are different in the case of a publically owned faciliy). We had a situation in our area where a facility owner had banned a person from her property, and AKC confirmed that while banned that person could not attend events there (it's entirely up to the person owning the property).

As to the grumbling/growling, it doesn't really matter why the dog is doing it, it just needs to be stopped. It's a quick way to loose points (any noise generally means points off), get excused (or even DQ'ed depending on the judges interpretation) during a trial, and it WILL intimidate/distract other dogs (especially soft dogs) and handlers. You don't want your dog to ruin someone else's chance at a qualifying score .

I'd go back to basics with this dog...start with tiny increments of quiet stay time, and build back up to the full time. You want to cut the time down to what she can handle without talking. The grumbling could very well be a sign of insecurity with the exercise (many trainers and handlers increase time and distance so quickly on the stays that they create this), and backing up to a point where she's comfortable will help rebuild her confidence in exactly how she should be doing the exercise.

[Trouble1]

Thanks alot for the feedback, as I mentioned we have been going to this class for 7 weeks now, this was the first "grumbling" or incident with my dog of any kind. Her comportment and behaviour have been nothing but perfect until this point. At the time, my dog was clearly not being aggressive, she had rolled onto her back (her favorite playing position) during her down and was told by me to return to her side and although she immediately complied, she complained about it by grumbling. She wasn't the least bit interested in the dogs next to her nor were any of the other handlers upset. It was only the instructor that went over the top.

After reading your replies, I starting thinking about the fact that the instructor made us go directly from the long sit stay to the long down stay with the dog remaining in the same place. It was like that may have been a trigger for the grumbling/complaining. I am thinking that I should practice the exact same thing at home until I can do this with her being reliably and consistently quiet.

My dog responds reliably to the "quiet" command which stops her when she barks and it works for barking but she doesn't respond to it as well when she grumbles.

As for finding another competitive obedience club, unfortunately, this club is the only competitive obedience club in the area. The rest are clubs that train family type dogs so my options are limited.

[moondog]

It sounds like there may be "more to the story" to me. Did you go ballistic back? Competition Obedience instructors can be pretty harsh sometimes...I think it comes with the territory. BUT, as a student you need to suck it up sometimes and understand where they are coming from, too. In this situation, it looks like you are in the market for a new instructor, as it sounds like the bridge has burned.

We have a couple of those duck trolling retrievers in our competition obedience class, and they are VOCAL, LOL, but it's a "bark" vocal, not a "growl" vocal...AND....the owner works consistently with teaching her dog NOT to vocalize, which is a big part of why she's in the class to begin with. My dog has learned to completely disregard the trollers, but I think she'd have a much harder time ignoring a growl (it's a growl, whether you call it a grumble or not) coming from the dog next to her in the long down.

So....harmless or not, you'd be wise to work on a silent down.

[Trouble1]

For the record, no I didn't go ballistic back to the instructor, I remained very calm and tried to look for some positive out of the critisim. I was a former competitive althlete and am used to being aggressively "coached" without getting emotional about it.

However, there was no question that the instructor definitely lost it, and spent the entire duration of the long down stay chewing out me and my dog and rotties in general. It is only because of my lack of animosity that she is allowing me to attend her next class to see what progress I have made with my dog in the week. However, I am still barred from attending any sanction matches or obedience trials at her facility.

I agree that the grumbling has to stop, its getting it to stop consistently that is the issue and hopefully some of you good folks out there have some other suggestions for me because I am more than willing to try them.

[rottcrazed]

Rottweilers may well be vocal, we all get that since most of us have either owned one or currently own one (I have owned one and have one), however, in a 'competitive' class situation, which I have been active in for a decade now, owners are supposed to have all of these little nuances under control while they are training. Pet classes, for basic training for house pets, you will usually have trainers help you to deal with the issues of 'talking', however, you will certainly not find many judges in the US or Canada who are going to tolerate 'talking' or growling of ANY kind at all, even if they own the breed.

Huskies, Malamutes, some Shepherds, even Labs and Goldens (and I train with a talky, mouthy little Cocker as well) have a tendancy to talk, but when you are training at a competitive level, this stuff should be worked through already.

I know my trainers would want the owner of a talky dog to get it under control ASAP, they have verbally scolded people who have growly dogs in class, and then helped them to work through it as well.

I can see your trainer's point of view given my own experience. Perhaps banning you was a little harsh, but if you offended her in any way defending your dogs' behavior, then that maybe has more to do with it than the dogs' actions themselves. I can't really see a good dog trainer giving you the boot for a 'talky' dog on it's own without giving you help first unless there was more to the story.....

Kristi

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Trouble1

For the record, no I didn't go ballistic back to the instructor, I remained very calm and tried to look for some positive out of the critisim. I was a former competitive althlete and am used to being aggressively "coached" without getting emotional about it.

However, there was no question that the instructor definitely lost it, and spent the entire duration of the long down stay chewing out me and my dog and rotties in general. It is only because of my lack of animosity that she is allowing me to attend her next class to see what progress I have made with my dog in the week. However, I am still barred from attending any sanction matches or obedience trials at her facility.

If this is indeed the case, then I'd say it is only because of your lack of animosity that YOU are willing to attend her next class, not the other way around.

If she knows her stuff and you don't have other options available to you, then you may as well let any "crap" wash over you and hang onto what she is there to teach. Sometimes you just have to make a distinction whether it's "them" or "you" and let it go at that. I've learned a TON my our competition obedience instructor and she's not always a walk in the park, either.

In any case, good luck teaching the "Shush!"

[Trouble1]

[I know my trainers would want the owner of a talky dog to get it under control ASAP, they have verbally scolded people who have growly dogs in class, and then helped them to work through it as well.

I can see your trainer's point of view given my own experience. Perhaps banning you was a little harsh, but if you offended her in any way defending your dogs' behavior, then that maybe has more to do with it than the dogs' actions themselves. I can't really see a good dog trainer giving you the boot for a 'talky' dog on it's own without giving you help first unless there was more to the story.....

Kristi[/quote]

Unfortunately, there was no help or advice offered from the instructor to fix the issue nor do I expect any. I did receive a clear order from the instructor to "get that dog to stop growling immediately" but other than that, the remainder of the yelling was just negative admonishment. That's why I've turned to this forum for help.

[Mick Trainer]

There are many things that can be done to cure such a problem from punishing the growling with a collar (marking the behavior, walking back and giving a small correction to the dog) or best with an e-collar (small stim when the talking starts and removal of it when it stops) or what I would go with first is to condition the dog to a clicker (if you havn't done so already, or an other secondary re-enforcer) and then put the dog in a drop stay and wait for the dog to stop talking and then "click", return and release the dog thus rewarding the stop talking. The dog should soon learn to go quiet sooner and sooner. Then once the dog has made the association to stopping then make it hold for longer before returning and releasing. The dog should soon learn to go quiet straight away and then hold quiet for the full exercise waiting to be released before giving any verbalisation. If the last option causes trouble then go to the first two.

This really shouldn't be difficult to cure. I would think you should be able to nut this out in a few weeks pretty comfortably.

Mick.

[Rottlva]

I'm going to throw in a bit too....

A lot of my dog's stay work is done on a flexi leash and prong. Flexi leash is flexed out to the maximum distance, and rests on the floor. My foot rests on top of the flexi. Any air scenting, checking out the other dogs, shifting of position which may lead to a down on the long sit, or a sit on the down is corrected while I am at the end of the flexi with my foot. Cam was taught a tension stay meaning that if I pull backwards he braces backwards in effort to hold position.

My instructor who I think very highly of and who has taught some of the top OTCH dogs in the country, along with having one of the top BC's herself has the motto that if you have to go in and correct your dog once for a broken stay, or ill behavior, it is a mistake. If the dog does it again, the dog does not fully comprehend the exercise, thus belongs out of the lineup to practice it on his own. There is so much stress in the lineup that constantly going fowards and backwards to correct, reinforce the dog is unfair to the other dogs as it is a stressor to them as well.

I know if your dog was grumbling in a line up where I train she would have excused your dog, and asked him to practice in an area where he wasn't disruptive to the other dogs..... I know she wouldn't have made you leave the training facility, but there is no place in the lineup for that type of behavior, playing or not.

Keep your chin up though. I switched trainers last year from a corgi person to a BC person that also had great success with bloodhounds. She loves the drive of my dog, loves his pushiness and embraces his attitude. She pushes me to drive harder, just as she has me him drive harder.... Because I have the comittment to succeed and achieve greatness, and because I listen to her words and practice hard, she puts the time and effort into myself and my dog that we need to suceed.......time to look for someone who can do this for yourself.......

[Trouble1]

Thanks guys for the suggestions, I am going to start immediately to work on reinforcing the "quiet" with the clicker. She is already trained to it.

If I understand correctly, I will need to provoke the behaviour, ignore it and then reward her only when she goes quiet. This will have its challenges as unfortunately she doesn't vocalize on her down stays at home, but I respect what was said about the lineup and the stress on the other dogs. In fact, if I ask my dog to do a down stay outside of the lineup but still in the training facility she will do so without the grumbling, it seems to only happen right after doing the long sit and the going directly into the long down. But all of you are right it isn't fair to the other dogs and perhaps I can see if the trainer will let me continue with the rest without participating in the long down until I get this cracked.

Her other behaviour is excellent during the class and her response to the other commands are immediate and silent.

Thanks again this has been extremely helpful.

[Eirian]

Should you wish to look into alternative training centres in the Ottawa area (one of these may already be where you are going) here are a few...any yes they are Competitive Obedience.

Bytown Dog Obedience Club (Ottawa South near Leitrim): The Bytown Dog Obedience Club - Ottawa,Ontario

The Training Hall (Ottawa West near Stittsville be sure to enroll in Francis Holmes' class only): The Training Hall Main Page

K9101 (East of Ottawa, Cumberland with Bev Hurst) Ottawa Dog Obedience & Agility Training K9101 Ontario Australain Shepherd Breeder

I feel with anything in life you need to have a good rapport with the people you work with in order to succeed. Besides the fact that you are attending to train for trial, your instructor should be helping you with your problem not berating you and sending you packing.

Good Luck!

Johnna

Eirian Rottweilers

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by Trouble1

Thanks guys for the suggestions, I am going to start immediately to work on reinforcing the "quiet" with the clicker. She is already trained to it.

If I understand correctly, I will need to provoke the behaviour, ignore it and then reward her only when she goes quiet.

I don't think you want to provoke or encourage her to be vocal per se but perhaps replicate the situation where she would be vocal and if she does grumble, wait for her to finish THEN reward. Maybe a park would be a good start?