Schutzhund... is it a good idea with a child in the house?

[Jennx]

Great question. We just took our bitch to observe at our local ScH club yesterday for the first time. It was very interesting to she her response around the other dogs. (All shepards and Mallinois). We had never seen ScH training before and wanted to consider it for our girl. She showed great interest and drive, and it is something we will look into after her confirmation is complete. Her personality is that of a turtle dove with everyone and everything she meets, and we were assured that that being her basic personality, would not change. I did find the training process a tad unsettling though. Perhaps because that was our first time being exposed to it?

What is the general thought of rotts participating in ScH and the image of the breed? (I know thatmay sound like a stupid question, but it was proposed to us that "BITE WORK"

It was mentioned to us that the protection phase of Sch may cast an unnecessary negative light on the breed. ??? I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment, as if training is proper and the dog is sound, it should be fine, right?

[Janus'sMom]

My concern was when I take him for his training, if he'd be so hyped up and turn around and bite the child without meaning it agressively. But it does make sense that if he's to be trained to bite, he must be trained to let go and only on a sleeves. But now I'm not worried about that. If other people have taken their dogs for this training and they have not had any insidences then I feel re-assured.

As far as his basic obedience is going, he's being a turkey. Listens one minute and then doesn't the next, even with food and toys as rewards. With this weather, I can't take him out doors for his training. So he's stuck inside with distractions from the child and the cat.

[mferg]

You won't have your child on the field while you are working your dog. If your child IS on the field while you are working your dog, you need to get control of your child. Naturally, when the dog is amped up, it can inadvertantly bite the child or another person if they pester the dog. But, that is not the case if the dog is casually hanging out and the child is around. It all goes back to be a responsible adult (be it dog owner, handler or a parent).

In my club, there's a woman, who has a very strong dog (GSD), and has a young child. The girl has been coming out to training since she was only a couple months old. She's 3 or 4 now. The dog is wonderful with the kid. The girl knows how to be around dogs since it's been her entire life. The only issue has been if the girl has pitched a fit because Mommy was on the field with the dog instead of being with her (toddler thing).

I know several dogs, mine included, that work energetically on the field, but when finished are content to sit in somebody's lap without issue. A stable dog that starts with correct and concientious training will remain a stable dog.

[alice's mommy]

Janus's Mom, I'm not sure how to use the quote function but you wrote:
"Janus always wants to play and because of the child not wanting to listen he's always getting scratched by Janus. I just don't know how to get the boy to listen. I tell him not to run, so he keeps running. I tell him not to keep Janus's toys away from him (running from Janus with his toy in hands) and he does it anyway."

This concerns me!!! A three year old child is NOT going to stop running! He's not going to understand the rules of being around a dog perfectly at this age! If he's "always getting scratched" then you need to SEPERATE THE DOG AND CHILD!!! Don't blame a three year old CHILD for getting hurt by your dog! Why is your dog near enough to this child TO scratch him?! It is YOUR responsibility to make sure this child stays safe, not just inconveniencing the DOG by making him stay outside at these times.

Grrrr...

[Janus'sMom]

Alice's mommy, don't GRRR at me. The child and Janus do have play time together so that they can socialize with each other. I don't want to have to keep Janus caged or tied outside just because the boy is running around in the house. I'm not expecting the boy to stop running altogether. When I see Janus starting to run towards the boy I tell him to stop running and walk while I try to redirect Janus to a toy. They do play wonderfully together, and I don't think I'm being Ir-responsible for letting them play and socialize together. For the most part the boy is on the couch watching his cartoon or playing with his toys, and Janus is laying at my feet with one of his own toys. My house has an open floor plan for the living area and kitchen, so it's not like I can separate them. I'm not going to keep Janus caged up or outside in this freezing weather or keep the boy in his room all day long. And I am insulted that you would think that I would blame a child for getting scratched by a 3 month old puppy!
In any case, this will not be an issue anymore when the end of the month comes around. I will be leaving my boyfriend and his son by the end of the month. Thank you everyone for the input and advice given to me.

[alice's mommy]

Wow... I find that incredibly ridiculous that you think that it is at ALL acceptable for a dog to get close enough to a child to "repeatedly scratch him". In my books, darn right that gets a "grrr"!!!

Here's an option you could have tried: LEASH YOUR PUPPY TO YOU!!! In dozens of threads here you would see that this is a common way to ensure that you know exactly where your puppy is at all times, what he is doing at all times, and making sure that he is not GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO FAIL...which in this case would be scratching this child.

Yes, puppies should socialize, but they should NEVER be given the opportunity to hurt a child, whether it's accidentally or not. Feel free to read my posts where I have explained countless times to people how I have ensured that my three children (aged 8, 5 and 1.5 years old) have been socialized with my 6 month puppy without EVER getting harmed by him. It's WORK.

Double grrrrr.....

[Andy Larrimore]

I have trained many dogs for serious protection work over the last 11 years. I have also helped out with schutzhund training although I prefer more serious work. Proper Schutzhund training or police K9 / security training doesn't start at 2 years old. It starts as soon as you get your puppy. I start all my puppies in rag work / bite work at least by 9 weeks old. I do heavy enviromental exposure with them almost daily. By 16 weeks they are going through a tunnel and clatterstick to bite the rag. A properly trained protection dog is not a vicious dog nor is he unstable. He is a dog that has been properly trained how to responde to a threat. A properly trained Schutzhund dog is not vicious or carless with his bite. He is a dog that has learned a specific routine and works primarly to please its owner during the routine and is generally not working out of hard defense. IMO without trying to be rude, I think you should probally have a better understanding of the working dog vs. the pet. They are raised differently and imprinted differently in order to perform at their best and reach the desired goal.

[Janus'sMom]

Andy, I had no idea that raising a working dog vs. a pet was that different. I just saw that he likes to play tug o' war and he searches for his toys burried in the snow. I thought that Sch would be a good sport (nothing majorly serious) for him to keep his mind busy. If it's that different, then I guess maybe I should be looking for a differant activity for him. Especially since he's still shy with new people. I was unable to propperly socialize him between the age of 5wks and now. I'm currently working with him on this, but I also still have to get him up to date with his last berdetalla and rabies shot before I feel comfortable about bringing him out in public. I bring him with me to friend's houses, but when we go back the next day it's back to being fearful. And part of me wonders if he's being shy or just being a booger and trying to play keep away from them. Sometimes he does his play bow, but he's always barking at them and then running away from them (usually to me or under a table). When he's onleash he pulls and barks at passerby's and growls at them (sometimes with his hackle raised).

[JoJo]

They are raised differently and imprinted differently in order to perform at their best and reach the desired goal.

I don't know a thing about PP dogs on how to train them, but I would think that like any other puppy, the weeks between 8 - 12 are the imprinting stage that is most important. Also, I would think one would need to let the pup be a pup so not to break his spirit but instead, build confidence. Where would raising and imprinting be different? You either have the correct temperament or you don't. It takes a special dog to be able to be a true PP dog, am I correct or not?

[Andy Larrimore]

It takes a dog with the correct genetics to be a PP dog. All dogs of every breed are BORN with a certain amount of prey and a certain amount of defensive drives. You can raise a pup in an enviroment without properly imprinting that pup. Imprinting a pup is conditioning a pup to a positive circumstance over and over again an then building on it and it's drives. I can expose a pup positively to more through imprinting then by just allowing a pup to be a pup. I try never to let my dogs experience anything bad or even give them a correction until they are at least 1 year old. Often times this means bad manners such as jumping or pulling. The positive, is that the puppy knows no pain or correction, only praise and a lot of it for desired behavior. When the pup sees the decoy it does not know that it can be hurt by the decoy. If the decoy exposes the pup to a water hose, clatter stick, wooden pallets the puppy does not feel that he can be hurt by the decoy and is much more confident in its bite. If a dog knows it can be hurt by it's own handler then it knows it can be hurt by a decoy. Once I am confident in the dogs ability to fully engage the decoy I begin the obedience. If the dog downs the dog immediately gets the bite. If the dog does a nice heeling pattern for 5 feet the dog gets the bite and so on. Then I gradually increase what I expect out of the dog. The dog developes very nice focus on the man and handler as the handler is the one who allows the bite to take place.

You are right when you said "you either have the correct temperament or you don't". The fact is, is that about 90 percent of dogs can not be PP dogs. It is the temperament that makes the dog a PP dog, not the breed. If you have the correct genetics its up to the handler to train / imprint the pup properly. Without training you will not reach the full potential of your dog no matter what the genetics are.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Andy Larrimore

They are raised differently and imprinted differently in order to perform at their best and reach the desired goal.

IMHO, all dogs should be reared as working dogs are, or in as similar a fashion as is possible. The puppy class I instruct is geared towards rearing a working dog. Why? Because rearing a working puppy involves confidence building, and a confident dog is a safer dog in today's society. Teaching proper confidence building, imprinting, and socialization skills are paramount in rearing a confident and happy member of the family, or a happy member of the training club.

The only thing that is done differently for pet puppies in my class is the early introduction of bite inhibition.

The introduction of stimuli, the importance of play and game teaching, and the understanding that a puppy must first be a puppy before it can be a proper dogs are all incredibly important, and the students gain a much greater understanding and respect for their puppies.

[Luvs]

Originally Posted by pazzo

I personally have my SchH3 Gsd, (who is NOT just a sport dog) around infants and children on an everyday basis. A SchH dog MUST be of correct temperment, correct temperment to me is a dog who is clear in the brain. My dog can be around the smallest child or the most frail person, I am not ever worried. SchH will teach you how to read your dog and the relationship you will develop will be profound if done correctly!

That being said, propper supervision is a must with any dog. SchH or NOT!!! My dog is NEVER around anyone without me. Owning any dog is a responsibility, never to be taken lightly. Your foundation in SchH is obedience. Obedience begins with the relationship.

good luck.

I totally agree with Dana!!!

If your dog has the correct temperment he should be able to do schutzhund training and be around children.

All three of our Rotties have some schutzhund training. We have been doing schutzhund with Akasha and Keil since they were 1 1/2 (they are now 5). We started out taking basic obedience classes and put AKC obedience titles on both AKasha and Keil before deciding to give schutzhund a try.


We have not done any schutzhund training for the past year due to the addition of our three babies ( a 10 month old and 18 month old twins). We are taking a little break from schutzhund since I am not able to dedicate the time necessary right now. Hopefully that will change sometime in the near future, because I REALLY miss it and I know the dogs do as well.


All three dogs have been phenominal with the babies.

That being said, the babies are NEVER left alone with any of the dogs. We closely monitor all interactions between the dogs and babies. The babies are learning how to act/treat the dogs and vice versa. One of the twins has already learned basic hand signals for the dogs and they actually listen to her