Definition of a working dog?

[JemarsSerena]

Kinda sidetracking off another thread.

There has been lots of discussion lately about working rotts and where the breed has gone astray. What I would like to know is just what is a working rott in this day and age. Humans have virtually eliminated the need for dogs to work in the real world. While I agree that we need to maintain the rott as a solid working breed and not some show only pretty dog, how is that done? I've defined a working rott as a highly trainable, stable dog that can handle nearly any job thrown at it, but I would love to here other definitions of what a working dog is in the present day and if a working dog is a true "working" dog then in what venues does it need to be working?

[dipper]

IMHO if you read the standard you have the definition of the "working" rottweiler---it's all right there.
A working Rott in this day and age should be the same as it was 25 years ago---that is, I am not aware of any change in the standard as it pertains to temperament.
Meet the standard and you should have a dog that is capable to work.
There are many ways to work your dog ---everyday--in your own back yard.
It doesn't have to be bitework all the time.
I do something with my dog everyday---retrieve training, OB, tracking etc.

we need to maintain the rott as a solid working breed and not some show only pretty dog, how is that done?
By careful and selective breeding of parents with proven temperaments.
These websites are full of litter announcements where the dogs are conformation titled,"multi v-rated" and ofa'd. Thats it.
Then you hear---we expect high drive puppies suitable for work or show---REALLY??
How does a prospective buyer know or confirm this--take the breeders word??

Point is MANY litters are out of parents that never did anything except parade around a show ring---sorry, I'm not going to take your word that your puppy out of non-titled unproven parents is going to be "high drive and suitable for work."

It's ALL about the temperament---what makes a stable, safe, biddable dog 25 years ago is the same thing that makes them that way today and the same thing that will make them that in the next 25 years.

In the desire for creating great looking conformation dogs, many breeders have overlooked temperament and have bred with little or no concern for it.

I would ask that puppy buyers support the breeders that take the time to train and test their stock ---who put in the work it takes and spend the money it costs to give potential buyers something concrete to look at and consider.

Rich

[lblax]

Originally Posted by JemarsSerena

if a working dog is a true "working" dog then in what venues does it need to be working?

it needs to be working in the venue that is breed specific for the breed. rottweilers are herders/drovers/protection animals(such as pp/sch. and police work)
while things like agility/flyball/rally and venues of these natures may be fun and while therapy/pulling carts and things like this are jobs none of these proves the working capibilities of a rott as its intended as a matter of fact these things are dominated by other breeds.

[marianne]

We have so many owners today who have NO intent of ever placing their dog in any show ring.
IMO the Standard for Character:
The Rottweiler should possess a fearless expression with a self assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships.He has an inherent desire to protect home and family,and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adapability with a strong willingness to work.

A judge shall dismass from the ring any shy or vicious Rottweiler.

Copied from The Complete Rottweiler
Muriel Freeman

[JemarsSerena]

For the sake of discussion, is it safe to say that even though a dogs first role is as a simple family pet it can still be a working dog even though it technically does not have a formal job other than obedience and excersize? I'm not disagreeing with either idea, I 'd just like to get a better idea of what a working dog's role is in the present day. I'd have to respectfully disagree that their role is the same as it was in the past. It is a different time even if the dog is unchanged. I am in no way implying that the standard should be changed.

So if a rott is not trained in PP/Schutzhund/herding does that make it any less of a working dog?

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by JemarsSerena

So if a rott is not trained in PP/Schutzhund/herding does that make it any less of a working dog?

No it simply makes it harder to judge truly what it is. The dog is what it is and as we all know it only throws it's genes and not its training so a dog can be a worker without being worked as long as you know what you are looking at and if you intend to breed from it you or someone you know and trust better work the dog. I do not need nor really seek that a dog be SchH trained anymore any way as this in real terms tells me, if I am outside the inner circle of people who work the dog, little (though I am sure the helper of this dog knows it very well) but more look to either work the dog myself or like stated get someone to work it. I would be happy to breed off a dog that hasn't done a lot of work if I can work it myself.

For me a working dog must be all thethings written above in terms of the standard etc but must also be able to do it for real, civilly. I like "He has an inherent desire to protect home and family". Yeah right how many of the Rotts today truly seek this?

Mick.

P.S. Larry if you read this I am trying to reply to your emails but they keep getting returned. Dont know why.

[JonandMichelle]

Originally Posted by lblax

it needs to be working in the venue that is breed specific for the breed. rottweilers are herders/drovers/protection animals(such as pp/sch. and police work)
while things like agility/flyball/rally and venues of these natures may be fun and while therapy/pulling carts and things like this are jobs none of these proves the working capibilities of a rott as its intended as a matter of fact these things are dominated by other breeds.

I am with you on the above; however, you lost me with the cart pulling, as isn't this not in the Rottweiler's heritage?

I believe Marianne's quote from Muriel Freeman should be the correct temperament for a true Rottweiler regardless, and should be strived by ALL breeders--not just by working venues, and this is where breeders fall short as well with watered down specimens. Don't get me wrong, as I too believe breeders are WAY too focused on their "show" lines, and are ignoring/watering down the true characteristics of the breed. I do, however, still believe a Rottweiler can exhibit its true working capabilities through other inheritated forms other then the SchH field.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by JemarsSerena

For the sake of discussion, is it safe to say that even though a dogs first role is as a simple family pet it can still be a working dog even though it technically does not have a formal job other than obedience and excersize? I'm not disagreeing with either idea, I 'd just like to get a better idea of what a working dog's role is in the present day. I'd have to respectfully disagree that their role is the same as it was in the past. It is a different time even if the dog is unchanged. I am in no way implying that the standard should be changed.

So if a rott is not trained in PP/Schutzhund/herding does that make it any less of a working dog?

It doesn't need to be the dog's role, but I definitely wouldn't call a pet that has only done obedience and exercize a working dog. Every dog in the entire world should have obedience and exercize. Even most dogs that have numerous working titles do not do them as their "role". The working venues mentioned (PP/Schutzhund/herding) along with Police work are a strong part of the breed's history, and a big part of it's heritage and purpose. To me, these venues are still the primary "test" of whether a rott can work. To ignore these as unimportant in any breeding program is simply watering down the breed. As another member here posted recently: "the continuity of working temperment in each generation is extremely important, it is also important that it be proven".

[Ostory]

The Rottweiler is a working mainly due to it's history. The dog has changed greatly over the past few years. It now is much larger than it was even 20 years ago. The bigger dogs win shows, so it is only natural that the breed is getting bigger.

It is extremely difficult for a 95lbs male Rottweiler to win a show.

But this is a much better size dog to do "work". Schutzhund is the sport that the breed is test with in it's country of origin. This has been the sport which measure the dog's ability to work according to the breed club of the country of origin.

I can appreciate differing views on what "work" is. Regardless of the activity, once any breed's size goes over 100lbs it's ability to "work" will become restricted.

The temperament is another issue, but mainly the Rottweiler is a show dog with a history of work. In today's world not many are used by Police or Military, there are a few exceptions.

[jazzking1971]

do you think there is a difference between working dog and sport dog?

My rottie wouldn't be a good working dog at least not yet but he's gonna be a damn good sport dog.

to me sport dog = extreme prey drive, low aggression, low-medium hardness.

working dog = mid to high prey + extreme defense + high aggression and high hardness

I met a real working dog last night and according to the owner, he would have killed me if let loose. I didn't doubt him for a second. Glad I don't have a dog like that.

[damp]

In Denmark, a working dog (brugshund) is a title a dog earns, when it has shown (and confirmed) to a judge it can work accordingly to the breed standard!

If your dog hasn’t earned the title, it is not a working dog! Pretty simple!

When talking about Rottweilers (and GSDs, Giant Schnauzers, Dobermans, Boxers etc. etc.) Such a title here can be earned in BHP (equal to SCHH/IPO) or PH (police dog) and a few other programs I think! But all programs include tracking/obedience and bite work (if my memory serves me right)

Besides in conformation shows, there is a special class called “brugshundeklasse” (working dog class) where only dogs, who has already shown their working skills and earned the title "brugshund" (working dog) can be entered and compete.

No matter where I go, conformation shows, trials, local or national championship, I do look forward to see and watch the DKBRCHs = Dansk brugshunde champion (Danish Working Dog Champion) = Titled working dogs living up to the standard regarding both working abilities and conformation, no matter breed.

So from my point of view... you have to prove your dog is working dog... no matter breed.

The first step is to WORK your dog!

[moondog]

Originally Posted by damp

Besides in conformation shows, there is a special class called “brugshundeklasse” (working dog class) where only dogs, who has already shown their working skills can be entered and compete.

So from my point of view... you have to prove your dog is working dog... no matter breed.

The first step is to WORK your dog!

Is the working dog class in addition to conformation classes, or is it THE conformation class? If it is THE conformation class, I LOVE this. It makes such sense to me to have the primary criteria be a dog that works - who is then judged for conformation (prior to breeding) - than the other way around. It would certainly liven up the conformation classes, wouldn't it?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by moondog

Is the working dog class in addition to conformation classes, or is it THE conformation class? If it is THE conformation class, I LOVE this. It makes such sense to me to have the primary criteria be a dog that works - who is then judged for conformation (prior to breeding) - than the other way around. It would certainly liven up the conformation classes, wouldn't it?

In most german style (sieger) conformation shows here in the US, the working class is for dogs that have a recognized SchH,VPG,IPO title and have not earned a Sieger or Siegerin title.

[damp]

Originally Posted by moondog

Is the working dog class in addition to conformation classes, or is it THE conformation class? If it is THE conformation class, I LOVE this. It makes such sense to me to have the primary criteria be a dog that works - who is then judged for conformation (prior to breeding) - than the other way around. It would certainly liven up the conformation classes, wouldn't it?

I am not sure what you ask (or sigh)
But in conformation shows, there is a class called “working dog class” (brugshunde klasse) and your dog can’t enter that class no matter how cute, smart, clever, young, old, handsome/feminine he/she is.
The "ticket" to enter that class is a working title as said above!
If you can’t prove your dog has passed a working dog test and earned the title WORKING DOG- for Rottweilers it is BHP = (SCHH/ IPO) and PH (police dog) tests and some others I think… but nothing less… forget all about enter your dog in the conformation class … working dog!!
E.g. : BH does not count to access to show in the conformations class “working dog”

[Skip]

Originally Posted by damp

In Denmark, a working dog (brugshund) is a title a dog earns, when it has shown (and confirmed) to a judge it can work accordingly to the breed standard!

If your dog hasn’t earned the title, it is not a working dog! Pretty simple!

When talking about Rottweilers (and GSDs, Giant Schnauzers, Dobermans, Boxers etc. etc.) Such a title here can be earned in BHP (equal to SCHH/IPO) or PH (police dog) and a few other programs I think! But all programs include tracking/obedience and bite work (if my memory serves me right)

Besides in conformation shows, there is a special class called “brugshundeklasse” (working dog class) where only dogs, who has already shown their working skills and earned the title "brugshund" (working dog) can be entered and compete.

No matter where I go, conformation shows, trials, local or national championship, I do look forward to see and watch the DKBRCHs = Dansk brugshunde champion (Danish Working Dog Champion) = Titled working dogs living up to the standard regarding both working abilities and conformation, no matter breed.

So from my point of view... you have to prove your dog is working dog... no matter breed.

The first step is to WORK your dog!

Damp, once again I really agree with you.