Definition of a working dog?

[Ostory]

Dogs are grouped into classications call groups: Hounds, Terriers, Working, Herding, Toy, ect.

At the Shows a dog must first win their Breed, then the face the winners of the same Group their are in. Then all of the Group winners go against each other to win Best in Show.

[dmoniz]

It is the same here with the working dog class. But there is another open class that any dog over the age of 2 can enter without and working titles.

this part of the standard:

of extreme hardness and adaptability.

is what I think we are losing when we breed dogs who do not have Sch titles. It is often said here that rottweilers and sticks are not friends. It didn't used to be this way, but we are losing that hardness...

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Ostory

The Rottweiler is a working mainly due to it's history. The dog has changed greatly over the past few years. It now is much larger than it was even 20 years ago. The bigger dogs win shows, so it is only natural that the breed is getting bigger.

It is extremely difficult for a 95lbs male Rottweiler to win a show.

But this is a much better size dog to do "work". Schutzhund is the sport that the breed is test with in it's country of origin. This has been the sport which measure the dog's ability to work according to the breed club of the country of origin.

I can appreciate differing views on what "work" is. Regardless of the activity, once any breed's size goes over 100lbs it's ability to "work" will become restricted.

The temperament is another issue, but mainly the Rottweiler is a show dog with a history of work. In today's world not many are used by Police or Military, there are a few exceptions.

I don't agree that today's successful work/show rotts are much larger than (the successful work/show rotts) were 20 years ago. A lot of the top male rotts from 20 years were toward the upper part of the standard. I'm totally against those breeders nowadays that are REALLY breeding oversized, unhealthy rotts, but I've seen many rotts that are towards the upper end of the standard that I don't feel are restricted. Restricted how? In what particular area? Not for any kind of protection work...at least not the good ones. In what area would a lighter rott be an advantage? For speed? Even a very slow dog can catch a very fast person pretty quick.

[damp]

Originally Posted by dmoniz

But there is another open class that any dog over the age of 2 can enter without and working titles.

Yes so here ... but please explain what those shows/classes add to the breed, in paticular when we talk about WORKING ROTTWEILER???

[Ostory]

I will challenge you on that point. Let's look at the weights of the Rottweiler getting the most breedings in 1988. I don't know what the weights are, or even who they are. I can guess, but better is to look at the 1988 Kor Book to see. I think you will find that most of those Rotties will be under 110 lbs, and even find some under 100 lbs.

You will not find many today that size getting breedings.

Maybe I am wrong, but it is easy to find out. Let study the top ten dog based on the amount of breedings. This will not even be the better working dogs, just the most popular which is often the better show dogs.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Ostory

I will challenge you on that point. Let's look at the weights of the Rottweiler getting the most breedings in 1988. I don't know what the weights are, or even who they are. I can guess, but better is to look at the 1988 Kor Book to see. I think you will find that most of those Rotties will be under 110 lbs, and even find some under 100 lbs.

You will not find many today that size getting breedings.

Maybe I am wrong, but it is easy to find out. Let study the top ten dog based on the amount of breedings. This will not even be the better working dogs, just the most popular which is often the better show dogs.

I'll do some research. Maybe I am a little biased because my own preference is for a male that is toward the upper end of the standard, and maybe I noticed the older rotts more that were more toward my preference.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by damp

Yes so here ... but please explain what those shows/classes add to the breed, in paticular when we talk about WORKING ROTTWEILER???

Nothing. My thought has been that there should be a distinction in conformation classes between dogs that are being evaluated for breeding stock (which would require those working titles for entry) and those whose owners simply enjoy showing them. And if I was in charge, LOL, spayed/neutered dogs would also be allowed in the non-breeding conformation classes along with those non-breeding dogs that are intact and they would be identified as such (non-breeding dogs) with their entry.

But what do I know......?

[Liz]

Just at a glance, Orville, there do seem to be a few dogs from the late 80's who are over 110 lbs - I only have zuchtbooks from 1990 on, so these are from Korung reports. Ashley Spreeteufel, 119, some of the I litter Fusse der Eifel dogs, Axel aus der Hage, Ambassador v Freienfels, Anton vom Hein (he was really early 1980's), Kai v Wildberger Schloss, Willi vh Neubrand, Timm v Zimmerplatz, Alex vom Sudharz, Irk v Obergrombacher Schloss, Carlo vd Rauberhohle, Dolf v Weissen Graben, Hassan v Konigsgarten, I'm sure there are more, but I have to get to work.

Liz

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Liz

Just at a glance, Orville, there do seem to be a few dogs from the late 80's who are over 110 lbs - I only have zuchtbooks from 1990 on, so these are from Korung reports. Ashley Spreeteufel, 119, some of the I litter Fusse der Eifel dogs, Axel aus der Hage, Ambassador v Freienfels, Anton vom Hein (he was really early 1980's), Kai v Wildberger Schloss, Willi vh Neubrand, Timm v Zimmerplatz, Alex vom Sudharz, Irk v Obergrombacher Schloss, Carlo vd Rauberhohle, Dolf v Weissen Graben, Hassan v Konigsgarten, I'm sure there are more, but I have to get to work.

Liz

Thanks Liz. One of these days I'd like to hear who some of your favorites were from the past, and who some of your present-day favorites are.

[feuerhaus]

1988-Alex vom Herrenholz, I litter Fusse der Eiffel, Gary vom Gruntenblick, Harkon v Leinetal, plus the ones that Liz mentioned etc.. All over 50+kg except for Iwan. The key is that the dogs had a different 'type' than seen now. Muzzles were longer and headtype was different. Almost any male 65-68cm tall were at 50kg or over at that time. Kai, Ambassador, Axel, Hassan, Irk, Dolf were all massive.
A male with a 16-17cm head with a 8 or 8.5cm muzzle which is common now was a freak then if it happened at all..
A 'correct' rottweiler at 66cm tall SHOULD weigh about 50kg.

The 88 ADRK DM and the dogs weights below: some small dogs but most within the 50kg+ range



1988 ADRK DM

1 Max vom Königsgarten, LS'1988 100 98 96 294 ( 52kg)
2 Muck vom Herzogsweg 99 96 98 293 ( 45 kg)
3 Benno vom Florian 96 96 100 292 (53 kg)
4 Rocco vom Horster Dreieck, LS'1987'1989 100 92 98 290 ( 52 kg)
4 Django vom Heltorfer Forst 100 92 98 290 (46 kg)
6 Bronko von der Siegbrücke 99 92 98 289 ( 50 kg)
7 Morris vom Rauchfang 99 94 96 289 ( 49 kg)
8 Ambassador von Freienfels 99 93 96 288 ( 57kg)
9 Merkur vom Bayernland 100 89 98 287 ( 48 kg)
10 Ajax vom Schloß Borbeck 100 88 98 286 ( no ztp or korung)
11 Gary vom Grüntenblick 96 94 96 286 ( 51 kg)

Originally Posted by Liz

Just at a glance, Orville, there do seem to be a few dogs from the late 80's who are over 110 lbs - I only have zuchtbooks from 1990 on, so these are from Korung reports. Ashley Spreeteufel, 119, some of the I litter Fusse der Eifel dogs, Axel aus der Hage, Ambassador v Freienfels, Anton vom Hein (he was really early 1980's), Kai v Wildberger Schloss, Willi vh Neubrand, Timm v Zimmerplatz, Alex vom Sudharz, Irk v Obergrombacher Schloss, Carlo vd Rauberhohle, Dolf v Weissen Graben, Hassan v Konigsgarten, I'm sure there are more, but I have to get to work.

Liz

[Skip]

For anybody wondering: 50kg = 110 pounds.

[Ostory]

50 KLG is equal to 110 lbs. 45 KLg is equal to 99.21 lbs.

Keep this in mind that typically the owners max their dogs out for the weights for the breed test. Working weight and Show weight are often very different.

Still I believe you can see a difference from 20 years ago and today. Now let's study what the weights are with the top dog in 08.

I had not thought about studying the dog in the 88 DM, but this should make an excellent study. feuerhaus, could you post the scores of the dogs so we can compare the results of the lighter ones to the heavier ones?

[feuerhaus]

I agree on the dogs weighing more at a ztp or Korung and being in working shape for Sch or especially the DM. The dogs weights seem to be pretty similar to the weights of the dogs from now. I think the 'type' has dramatically changed and that is the big difference. Ambassador v Freienfels for example was 62kg at his ztp and was a super worker but did not have the freaky headtype we see now with mastiffy headtype and short muzzles. The ADRK put a huge emphasis on the temperment / work side of the dogs in the 80's -90's. The numbers for both of those events annually are way down..
Here is the results for the 88-89 DM

37. DM 1988: Oeding











1 Max vom Königsgarten, LS'1988 100 98 96 294
2 Muck vom Herzogsweg 99 96 98 293
3 Benno vom Florian 96 96 100 292
4 Rocco vom Horster Dreieck, LS'1987'1989 100 92 98 290
4 Django vom Heltorfer Forst 100 92 98 290
6 Bronko von der Siegbrücke 99 92 98 289
7 Morris vom Rauchfang 99 94 96 289
8 Ambassador von Freienfels 99 93 96 288
9 Merkur vom Bayernland 100 89 98 287
10 Ajax vom Schloß Borbeck 100 88 98 286
11 Gary vom Grüntenblick 96 94 96 286
12 Bonyx vom Henninger Turm 99 90 98 287
13 Bea vom Nienburger Land 97 92 96 285
14 Fulco vom Alemannenhof 99 95 90 284
15 Dino vom Lintrup 100 95 89 284
16 Filou von Hildelingen 90 95 98 283
17 Bessi vom Hertener Wappen 98 92 93 283
18 Veith vom Schwaiger Wappen 93 93 96 282
19 Amigo vom Dütewinkel 100 92 90 282
20 Dago vom Suderbrunnen 96 91 94 281
21 Ken vom Sternbogen 99 83 98 280
22 Droll vom Schwarzbach 95 91 94 280
23 Dux vom Klosterdiek 100 91 89 280
24 Jonny von der Habenichts 90 93 96 279
25 Eddi vom Friedenssaal 91 91 96 278
26 Corro vom Moritzberg 97 92 89 278
27 Cito von der Belmer Heide 99 88 90 277
28 Arras von der Steineiche 98 84 94 276
29 Awus von der Lippequelle 100 86 90 276
30 Baffo von Freienfels 99 93 83 275
31 Barry von der Linner Burg 88 95 90 273
32 Blanka von der Stadt Altona 90 93 89 272
33 Falko vom Grüntenblick 94 82 95 271
34 Nero vom Zimmerplatz 90 90 86 266
35 Brennus von der Delmestadt 99 78 88 265
36 Barras vom Löhlein 88 77 80 245
37 Conny vom Weißenstädter See 75 87 80 242
38 Dingo vom Kressbach 99 83 73 0
39 Falk vom Kursaal 100 80 70 0
40 Clint vom Hohen Kantstein 93 90 64 0








38. DM 1989: Aschenberg











1 Rocco vom Horster Dreieck, LS'1987'1989 99 97 99 295
2 Harkon vom Leinetal 97 94 97 288
3 Fjordbakkens Andy, LS'1990 96 96 96 288
4 Eiko vom Ammonit 99 95 94 288
5 Axel aus der Hege 98 92 97 287
6 Cliff vom Limesbad 98 93 96 287
7 Bea vom Nienburger Land 100 93 92 285
8 Santo von der Mauth 94 93 96 283
9 Max vom Königsgarten, LS'1988 99 91 93 283
10 Gringo vom Alemannenhof 91 94 97 282
11 Quick vom Steigsträßle 95 91 96 282
12 Bronko von der Siegbrücke 96 91 95 282
13 Fjordbakkens Aik 95 93 94 282
14 Merkur vom Bayernland 98 94 90 282
15 Fulco vom Alemannenhof 95 92 94 281
16 Vampir von der Siegquelle 94 96 90 280
17 Boris vom Schloß Borbeck, LS'1991 96 93 90 279
18 Alex vom Herrenholz 95 88 95 278
19 Muck vom Herzogsweg 97 90 90 277
20 Benno vom Florian 97 94 86 277
21 Kai vom Wildberger Schloß 94 86 96 276
22 Baffo vom Freienfels 95 88 93 276
23 Barry von der Linner Burg 91 90 93 274
24 Elko von der Hexenkuhle 93 89 92 274
25 Boss von der Dorenburg 87 89 96 272
26 Jero vom Kressbach 94 85 93 272
27 Axel von der Siegbrücke 93 84 92 269
28 Baron von der Oelkofer Schmiede 99 88 82 269
29 Filou von Hildelingen 88 90 89 267
30 Blitz von der Siegbrücke 90 89 88 267
31 Kimbo vom Räuberfeld 94 92 80 266
32 Morris vom Rauchfang 93 83 89 265
33 Bonny vom Henninger Turm 90 90 84 264
34 Beppo vom Godewind 90 90 82 262
35 Bulli von der Stadt Altona 92 87 82 261
36 Dago vom Kloster Loccum 95 85 81 261
37 Ajax vom Schloß Borbeck 95 84 81 260
38 Jaros vom Leinetal 95 89 72 0

Corro vom Moritzberg 0 0 0 0

Arras von der Steineiche 0 0 0 0








39. DM 1990: Gladbeck











1 Fjordbakkens Andy, LS'1990 100 97 97 294
2 Eiko vom Ammonit 100 99 95 294
3 Santo von der Mauth 100 97 96 293
4 Boris vom Schloß Borbeck, LS'1991 98 95 99 292
5 Benno von Florian 99 97 96 292
6 Fjordbakkens Aik 100 94 96 290
7 Rocco vom Horster Dreieck, LS'1987'1989 100 98 92 290
8 Bosco vom Niersbruch 98 94 97 289
9 Bonyx vom Henninger Turm 99 94 96 289
10 Kai vom Wildberger Schloß 96 93 99 288
11 Eick vom Heltorfer Forst 97 95 96 288
12 Jens von der Waldachquelle 95 93 99 287
13 Caesar von der Dorenburg 95 96 96 287
14 Droll vom Schwarzbach 96 95 96 287
15 Baffo von Freienfels 96 93 97 286
16 Thyrus vom Horster Dreieck 98 92 96 286
17 Aki von Grafenstein 99 95 92 286
18 Bea von der Teufelsbrücke 100 88 97 285
19 Gringo vom Alemannenhof 97 93 94 284
20 Bea vom Nienburger Land 97 95 92 284
21 Xenia vom Schwaiger Wappen 98 96 90 284
22 Nero vom Zimmerplatz 97 96 90 283
23 Costa von der Asternhöhe 99 87 96 282
24 Chef von der Löwentränke 99 92 91 282
25 Veith vom Schwaiger Wappen 91 96 94 281
26 Alex vom Herrenholz 100 95 85 280
27 Don vom Preußenblut 96 94 87 277
28 Harras von der Vierjahreszeiten 92 93 91 276
29 Axel von der Siegbrücke 97 93 86 276
30 Barry von der Blütenstadt 93 90 92 275
31 Bill von Biefang 95 89 91 275
32 Bubi vom Hause Karmasin 95 85 94 274
33 Dolf vom Hartumer Busch 95 90 89 274
34 Fellow von Lintrup 98 87 89 274
35 Harkon vom Leinetal 100 90 80 270
36 Fang von der Merch 94 85 88 267
37 Asco vom Herrenholz 93 80 93 266
38 Ali von der Goldenen Brücke 94 76 91 261
39 Ali von Grafenstein 85 85 89 259
40 Bronco vom Hause Böller 87 77 82 246

Originally Posted by Ostory

50 KLG is equal to 110 lbs. 45 KLg is equal to 99.21 lbs.

Keep this in mind that typically the owners max their dogs out for the weights for the breed test. Working weight and Show weight are often very different.

Still I believe you can see a difference from 20 years ago and today. Now let's study what the weights are with the top dog in 08.

I had not thought about studying the dog in the 88 DM, but this should make an excellent study. feuerhaus, could you post the scores of the dogs so we can compare the results of the lighter ones to the heavier ones?

[Ostory]

These scores are extremely high. Feuerhaus, how do you think the same preformances would be scored at The DVG Nationals?

[Ostory]

Still we need to study the weights of the 08 dogs. It appears that most of these Rottweilers were just below or just above 110lbs. How many of the top Rottweilers in 08 are even close to 110 lbs. How many are over 120lbs?