Ready for civil helper

[brodster]

Just wondering what your guys (and girls) thoughts were on the age you have your dogs engage in civil work/defense? I know that it depends on the dog but what are some indications and or signs you get from your dog during prey work or elsewhere that let you know your dog is ready.

I knew my bitch at 20 months (she was a late bloomer mentally) was ready when on a late night I was on a lwalk through my neighbourhood park and there was a group of rowdy teens approaching. They were yelling and shoving each other, probably drunk and acting like baboons (don't most teenage lads?) She was very silent (stopped panting and walked a little larger), not pulling on the lead, but when a couple of them came close to us she lunged with a very deep growl. She didnt bark once at them. Needless to say they cleared my pathway. This told me that with no sleave (obvious prey item), and a potential threat approaching she would be ready for a fight.

Two days later she was doing civil work and on a hidden sleave two weeks after that. I am completely surprised (and happy)of what kind of dog she has grown into now that she is 3. What a machine.

Looking forward to opinions and thoughts, not to mention any personal experiences from you all.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by brodster

I knew my bitch at 20 months (she was a late bloomer mentally) was ready when on a late night I was on a lwalk through my neighbourhood park and there was a group of rowdy teens approaching. They were yelling and shoving each other, probably drunk and acting like baboons (don't most teenage lads?) She was very silent (stopped panting and walked a little larger), not pulling on the lead, but when a couple of them came close to us she lunged with a very deep growl. She didnt bark once at them. Needless to say they cleared my pathway. This told me that with no sleave (obvious prey item), and a potential threat approaching she would be ready for a fight.

posts like this one worry me!!! this scenerio means nothing on whether your dog is or isnt ready for civil work and this statemant

when a couple of them came close to us she lunged with a very deep growl. She didnt bark once at them. Needless to say they cleared my pathway.

tells me that your dog over reacted to a siituation that could have esily been a class of preschool kids pushing yelling and such and it wasnt a potential threat no threat the dog should have remained calm or at least just a little more alert and

Needless to say they cleared my pathway.

my last rott and my last male shepherd cleared all paths also but not by indescrimnitly growling and lunging but by being alert and walking with confidance

[brodster]

People like me worry you eh? My dog is perfectly fine around children and I don't need to post all of the reasons and situations that prove why.

If I had a dog (untrained) that didn't react to people acting out of order in the middle of the night while approaching me it would be useless. I said teenaged kids (16-18yrs) not kindergardners smartie pants. You obviously dont know whats its like to live in a big city and have the threat of youth gangs beating people to death or into retardation. I expect a dog that has not been trained civily to act that way when a potential threat presents itself. I'm sure your dogs were born trained right?

When people like you post stuff like "your dog overeacted" you never give a situation where it would be appropriate for them to act this way. Unless you'd like to provide me with one? Plus, what if one of them meant me harm and got close enough to swat me in the head with a pipe while my "alert, confident" dog stood by my side "alert"? You're unrealistic man. If you're going to sit here and tell me that an untrained dog in civil protection has bad nerves because it showed agression to a threat than you must train and own robots in dog clothes.

[debbiej]

yes it is worrysome to read of dog that makes decisions like this on it's own. and even more worrysome to find a rott owner that misunderstands such behavior.

[brodster]

I'm fully aware of reading my dogs behaviour debbiej. and I am also quite aware of her ability as a pp dog as I train with her almost daily.

If you can tell me that your dogs have never shown aggression that you have had to either nuture properly or correct ever then you have my ear.

Thanks for the concern though.

[moz205]

Originally Posted by brodster

I knew my bitch at 20 months (she was a late bloomer mentally) was ready when on a late night I was on a lwalk through my neighbourhood park and there was a group of rowdy teens approaching. They were yelling and shoving each other, probably drunk and acting like baboons (don't most teenage lads?) She was very silent (stopped panting and walked a little larger), not pulling on the lead, but when a couple of them came close to us she lunged with a very deep growl. She didnt bark once at them.

I had 2 dogs, one Rottie and one GS that would've done the same thing. They both were ill bred and had issues and could never be trusted. I don't think this is a good thing at all. You're dog took the lead and made the decision, not you- the supposed leader. There is no law against anyone of any age to act stupid or like baboons. There is no law as to how close someone can come to you, therefore, this is not a reason to have a dog attack. Your dog is a liability in reacting this way. Trust me, been there twice.
Since I am the owner of family pets I do not pretend to know about sleaves, protection training etc. I am sure there will be others more well versed in this area. I totally appreciate schutz etc and admire the work tremendously. Thankfully, Buddy has never lunged but has done his puffy chest when a drunk approached us one night. He just followed my direction of leave it and kept heeling at my side. When the guy started asking questions, I stopped and Buddy sat right at my side watching every move he made. This guy was a local drunk teen but Bud never lunged, growled or showed aggression. There was no physical threat to either of us. Being drunk, stupid and stumbling too close to anyone is not a reason for attack- heck been there myself!
For me, that's the dog I want. Hopefully, we won't ever be put to the test but you can be sure I'll be defending my guy.

[debbiej]

yes, my point. my dogs (more specifically my poorly bred bitch) have shown aggression toward people they perceived as a threat, and it concerned me greatly, as it was not appropriate or desired. Classes, obedience and increased trust and confidence have made her much less reactive. I don't have much 1st hand experience with PP dogs. but I honestly believe the posturing you describe simply does not mean a dog is ready to be trained as one. sorry.

[brodster]

Moz, my dog does not react to threats this way anymore. She is more confident and trained to react appropriately. I was simply showing that in her untrained state she reacted this way, and in my city a group of rowdy teens at midnight in a park is a threat! People have been severely beaten to death by groups such as this.

There is no doubt who is the leader with my dogs in my house and any suggestion otherwise without training with me and knowing me by any member of the forum is a non starter folks.

[moz205]

Just curious as to protection training- am I wrong or in protection training is it desirable to have a dog make the attack decision? Isn't part of the training not to allow that? If that were the case then I guess my two unstable, uneven tempered dogs would have been considered personal protection huh? (In a way they were I guess as everyone went to the opposite side of the street when they were with me) Yikes, nearly cost me my apartment! As I said, I know nothing about this.
Living in a big city with lots of action I just wouldn't go into the park at night. I wouldn't put my guy or myself in jeopardy. About 2 weeks ago a Rottie was shot dead by guys breaking into a house not far from here. I chased a guy last month at 2 am after he broke into hubby's car. I left Buddy home and went after him myself- picture this- in my nightclothes, yep right onto the streets of New York City! (I think the poor guy would've begged for the cops to show up!) Not a pretty site!

[lblax]

Originally Posted by brodster

I said teenaged kids (16-18yrs) not kindergardners smartie pants.
When people like you post stuff like "your dog overeacted" you never give a situation where it would be appropriate for them to act this way. Unless you'd like to provide me with one? Plus, what if one of them meant me harm and got close enough to swat me in the head with a pipe while my "alert, confident" dog stood by my side "alert"? You're unrealistic man. If you're going to sit here and tell me that an untrained dog in civil protection has bad nerves because it showed agression to a threat than you must train and own robots in dog clothes.

1st dogs do not discrimnate between adults teenagers or children they are all the same to them. and yes your dog over reacted because there was no threat by these teenagers you wont approached you werent touched as far as i know you werent even threatened verbally and were any of them carrying a pipe???? and worse than your dog reacting to a non threat is that you thought it was kewl that she reacted to a non threat. you underestimate everyone by talking about your big city experiance while the most of us are savy to this and big city rural it doesnt make a diff in todays world anyway. and so what your telling us with this

You're unrealistic man. If you're going to sit here and tell me that an untrained dog in civil protection has bad nerves because it showed agression to a threat

is that your dog is basically untrained as a pp dog and its really nothing more than a testosterone moment.????

[brodster]

There is a clear difference Debbie. Your bitches aggression was not warrented or desired and mine was!

The proof is in the pudding. I deamed her to be ready (through experience) for pp, and she in fact was.

The point of my thread was to ask others opinions on what experiences or actions they see their dog display that tells them their dog is ready for civil work. Not to have know it all people who have never pp trained a dog weigh in with their "you dont know what you're doing" comments.
LOL!

[Butcher'sDog2]

Brodster, the situation you described is not an indication to me whether the dog is ready or not ready for civil work.

As far as that situation goes you need to decide how you'll handle it in the future. If you let it go it is fairly certain that she'll continue with this behavior. I can't be sure about what happened exactly to stimulate the dog and whether her reaction was merited. Only you know what you felt, how those guys behaved, and how close to you they actually got. My gut feeling is I would've given an out and a heel command and let her watch a little more. Next time pull over a little away from the action and give her a heel command to steady her so she can sit at heel and observe what's going on.

As far as what age to start civil work, there is no age. I start dogs civilly not in prey. Some fast maturing dogs can do it at 10 months, others at 2.5 years, yet others never. I just start and look for signs of forward aggression, a stance, a look, a growl or a bark, then build on it. If there's nothing to build on I wait and try again at a later time or push harder to make the dog come out or disqualify it. There aren't too many helpers that know how to do this right.

Edit - I missed that the bitch is 3 years old now. I thought you're still dealing with a young bitch. By now you know whether she's trigger happy or level headed.

[brodster]

Thanks for the reply I was looking for about the subject ButchersDog2


Iblax, dude, you miss the point entirely. It COULD have been a threat. It was not the desired reaction I have in a dog but was a reaction that told me she was ready to handle civil work. You're a frustrating cat!

I didnt think it was "cool" either, but I was happy to know that she was not afraid of a potential threat. And it WAS a potential threat. No I dont make a habit of putting myself in that situation either, it was circumstantial.

As for the testosterone comment? Juvenille bud, and below the belt.

Personal attacks are uncalled for and not the reason I am on this forum. Instead of attacking me at every chance you might want to answere my original question (and help people learn, including myself) in the post if you have such extensive experience in civil pp dogs?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by brodster

It COULD have been a threat. It was not the desired reaction I have in a dog but was a reaction that told me she was ready to handle civil work. :

also the same reaction any junk yard dog has when people happen by.

[jlhnokc]

When I first started Jaycee in classes, I asked about PP. She was about 8/9 months old. The trainer said giver her a couple months. So, when we were finished with the class over a month later he did some testing. He asked me lots of different questions about how she reacts to things, a new noise, a knock on the door, a stranger on the street, so on, (she would alert me and would do small steps towards investigating, but mostly would run back to me)how she reacted when I gave her a command in those situations (she would almost always listen) and then he watched how she reacted to watching to other doges getting worked. THen, he put her on a line to a pole and tested to see if she would engage with the helper. She did, so I guess that's how I knew...Someone else told me! :-)