what is a good prey-drive exactly?

[Obelix]

As prey-drive is very important for a good-working dog I am looking for a definition of this drive.When is it good? When is it to high? When is it not enough?For what I believe it is good when the dog would go through a wall to get what he's after(or send after).While trying to get his "prey" and you call the dog back ,or off, and he does so ,this seems just the right drive to me.(I am talking of trained dogs)When you call the dog back, or off, and he still goes right on after his "prey"then the drive is to high.(trained dog again)When the drive is not enough ,that's obvious I suppose.I would really appreciate your opinions ,or definitions,about this issue.I just want to know exactly what we are talking about when ,in several threads, is talked about the right(or a good) prey-drive

[moondog]

I'm far from an expert, but the "right" amount of prey drive to me would have as much to do with the handler as the dog! If a dog's prey drive eclipses his handler's ability to direct/redirect it - or if it eclipses the dog's willingness to work for his handler and be directed/redirected, then it's too high!

To me, whether it's too high or too low has to take into context his environment and the abilities of his handler(s).

[lblax]

prey drive is basically the dogs ability/and willingness and joy of chasing and killing things. a dog(sport dog) needs a balance of all drives prey/hunt/defense-fight but the prey drive is the building drive in my opinion it would be hard to find a rottwieler that had to much prey drive. dogs that have a good amount of prey drive in a pet home is sometimes a problem if the dog is not given a release for the drive then the drive turns to other things such as biting and other hyper activities these are usually percieved by the owner as aggression problems

[Mick Trainer]

Larry's reply I would consider pretty much spot on. AS for to much or to little that really comes down to what people wish to do with the dog but for a working dog with an experienced handler there is no such thing as "too much". The more the better.

Mick.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Obelix

As prey-drive is very important for a good-working dog I am looking for a definition of this drive.When is it good? When is it to high? When is it not enough?For what I believe it is good when the dog would go through a wall to get what he's after(or send after).While trying to get his "prey" and you call the dog back ,or off, and he does so ,this seems just the right drive to me.(I am talking of trained dogs)When you call the dog back, or off, and he still goes right on after his "prey"then the drive is to high.(trained dog again)When the drive is not enough ,that's obvious I suppose.I would really appreciate your opinions ,or definitions,about this issue.I just want to know exactly what we are talking about when ,in several threads, is talked about the right(or a good) prey-drive

When I am evaluating a puppy or a dog, I will test it's drive by teasing it with a toy (or various toys) and hopefully the dog will react to the stimuli in short order. Sometimes a tease pole (a rope tied to a pole on one end, with a toy at the other end; kind of like a whip with a toy at the end) is necessary if the dog or pup is a bit reserved about engaging with a strange adult in a new environment. With all this in mind, I prefer to see a pup or dog that is interested in any object I might be in possession of even before I offer a round of play with the item. Dogs who are inquisitive rate high in my book.

When is it good?

For me, having adequate prey drive is very important, as I train in drive and like to transfer from food rewards to toy rewards once the puppy is about 6mos old. Before a pup in my home reaches this age of "transfer", I spend a LOT of the pup's waking hours playing one on one with toys, and will sporadically use a toy for reward to help build lust for the reward item.

What I consider good prey drive: if prey drive is at a level in which it can be used easily to distract a pup/dog from:

a. unwanted behaviors, thus turning a negative into a positive.

b. objects, people, environments that might cause visible stress to the pup and/or illicit a fear response; I try to pay special attention to the pup's body language and comfort level at all times and especially when I introduce new stimuli to the pup. I want to be able to redirect the pup, and then utilize the almighty power of drive (whether food or toy) to assist the pup in establishing problem solving skills and confidence building.. my mantra for puppies is "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger!", and I stand by the belief that a confident puppy turns into a confident dog, and a confident dog is a much safer dog - especially in this litigious society we live in![/left] Stress is good, and stress is necessary for the proper mental development of a puppy; but assisting the pup in recovery - especially if the recovery time is not immediate is crucial to the ultimate well being of the animal.

c. good prey drive (or should I say adequate prey drive) will lend a dog an advantage in learning behaviors and will also assist the dog in learning quickly and with the least amount of work.

I think it's important to also address that prey drive is not singular in nature, to only take prey drive into consideration, and leave out other innate and hardwired features of a particular dog, we also need to look at strength of character/nerve, how defensive the particular dog is, along with the basic nature of the individual; is this a dog with submissive tendancies? Is this dog more dominant towards dogs or people? How strong are these tendencies? Balance of drives is important.

I'll want more prey drive to consider it "good" in a dog who is very submissive, or has phobias or has a strong aversion to other dogs in order to get the results I want to see in modifying these behaviors. In a dog with relatively no issues (the Golden Middle), less prey drive can be present in order to modify behaviors (basic training and in establishing boundaries of behavior for life). I hope that makes sense....

So, let's move on to the hypothetical dog with very good genetics, and let's suppose the dog has some training under it's belt. I want the dog to be rough and ready when I invite the dog to play or train.
I want to see enthusiasm like you see when there's a cheerleader on crystal meth in your living room during the World Cup Soccer Games.
I want to see a dog that WANTS and NEEDS to be engaged with me and our object of desire with no other care in the world, and I want my toy to be more important than any distraction I can throw at the dog. I want to be able to tug with a 55gallon barrel between us and then I'll move the barrel; if the dog stays attached to the toy, that's a touchdown in my book.
I want to see a dog that stays engaged with palm fronds flitting around it's head, when it's tail is stepped on, or if water is thrown. I want to see the dog remain engaged when it's raining, at night, in a strange parking lot... get my drift?

Those are drives that can override most (with training), if not all environmental stressors and boogie men that I can throw at the dog. I want drive enough to train the dog to maintain it's attention to the task at hand. I also want a clear enough head that the dog can pay attention to me AND the object.

I have one particular dog that will get "locked" in prey, and has a tendency to be oblivious to anything else around her. When in drive she has NO regard for her body, and she and my import grrrlie are (for lack of a better description) "balls to the wall" when the game is on.

In the case of my grrrlie who gets locked in prey, patient training and much repetition has gotten her to tone it down enough to perform behaviors even when she's wearing her "crazy eyes". Combined with her prey drive is a very high guarding instinct, which made it a challenge to teach her a reliable out, because she'd get locked in prey. Even though she is wired this way, she has a very clear head, and does not redirect aggression; although I would not consider her 'handler soft', she learned to respect the human who feeds her and sets the ground rules.

In the case of the import, her high drive assists her in getting through situations that might otherwise cause great conflict in training. She is handler soft and a bit on the defensive side, so her prey drive helps her keep from conflict on the field. Both of these grrrls possess what I would consider very "high" prey drive.

Both of them are highly social with humans, and very dominant with dogs.

And finally, lack of prey drive is what I don't want to see; it's more difficult to train and build upon behaviors, and neither the dog or me is having much fun. Dogs like that are good for the couch, but not much else.

I will also comment that a dog needs to be trained in a particular circumstance, or enough different circumstances to become reliable enough to be called off a chase... but then we're talking about training, not prey drive.

And now that I've spent all evening adding to this post, Larry pretty much summed things up in one paragraph vs my novel...LOL

[IJF1]

I'm with Mick and Larry on this - I don't see how you could have too much prey drive...

Problems resulting from a high prey drive are usually due to poor training/lack of handler ability.

[Skip]

It's easier to tone DOWN a high prey drive dog than it it is to increase the drive on a low prey drive dog.

[Obelix]

Thanks everyone so far,but I just want a definition of the high ,or good ,prey-drive,the kind that Poohbearsmom gave.It don't have to be that long and you don't have to spend all evening on this.But thanks again Poohbearsmom for your time and effort.

[damp]

Originally Posted by IJF1

I'm with Mick and Larry on this - I don't see how you could have too much prey drive...

Problems resulting from a high prey drive are usually due to poor training/lack of handler ability.

Agree...........

Prey drive is such vital and the most essential drive for the dog’s survival capacity!

Therefore IMHO a dog can’t have to much prey drive.
In a modern society, you as the owner must be able to handle and control… NOT only the prey drive but also all the other drives a “dog” must be gifted with, to have the great honour to be named .... Rottweiler!!!

[Mick Trainer]

Ok well when looking at a pup I want to see total focus and outward excitement towards the prey object. Like to see a little bark or something at the object. When the pup grabs the object want to see a good full bite already and being able to handle me down in their face and hitting the ground with a stick aprox 1 foot away. Differeing from Pooh's definintions a little I wouldn't want to have to use a tug pole etc I would want the pup to be able to handle this scenario "no worries".

In an untrained adult dog I want to see a very strong desire to chase the object in a good drivey dog and some very high verbalisation in a very drivey dog. In a good drive dog it should be comfortable very quickly putting it's mouth on the object, should come out in a strong forward motion towards the object. The very strong dog should appear a little manic in it's behavior with total focus on the object, it will show no hesitation towards biting the prey object and should be triggered into such behavior from the moment it sees the object move rapidly.

As for control in prey this is a training issue plain and simple, high drive when handled by an experienced handler will give the appearance of an extremely enthusiastic worker who is extremely clean and precise but in the hands of an inexpereinced handler will appear dirty, out of control and a difficult dog to handle. Once again I say give me more, more more, no matter how much you have.

As for a trained dog well I am sure we have all seen these so I want go into it except to say do not mistake a high drive dog for one who can only work in prey.

Mick.

[Obelix]

Thanks to all for clearing some things up.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

Ok well when looking at a pup I want to see total focus and outward excitement towards the prey object. Like to see a little bark or something at the object. When the pup grabs the object want to see a good full bite already and being able to handle me down in their face and hitting the ground with a stick aprox 1 foot away. Differeing from Pooh's definintions a little I wouldn't want to have to use a tug pole etc I would want the pup to be able to handle this scenario "no worries".

In an untrained adult dog I want to see a very strong desire to chase the object in a good drivey dog and some very high verbalisation in a very drivey dog. In a good drive dog it should be comfortable very quickly putting it's mouth on the object, should come out in a strong forward motion towards the object. The very strong dog should appear a little manic in it's behavior with total focus on the object, it will show no hesitation towards biting the prey object and should be triggered into such behavior from the moment it sees the object move rapidly.

As for control in prey this is a training issue plain and simple, high drive when handled by an experienced handler will give the appearance of an extremely enthusiastic worker who is extremely clean and precise but in the hands of an inexpereinced handler will appear dirty, out of control and a difficult dog to handle. Once again I say give me more, more more, no matter how much you have.

As for a trained dog well I am sure we have all seen these so I want go into it except to say do not mistake a high drive dog for one who can only work in prey.

Mick.

If I had my 'druthers, I would too!

[Ostory]

Originally Posted by Obelix

As prey-drive is very important for a good-working dog I am looking for a definition of this drive.When is it good? When is it to high? When is it not enough?For what I believe it is good when the dog would go through a wall to get what he's after(or send after).While trying to get his "prey" and you call the dog back ,or off, and he does so ,this seems just the right drive to me.(I am talking of trained dogs)When you call the dog back, or off, and he still goes right on after his "prey"then the drive is to high.(trained dog again)When the drive is not enough ,that's obvious I suppose.I would really appreciate your opinions ,or definitions,about this issue.I just want to know exactly what we are talking about when ,in several threads, is talked about the right(or a good) prey-drive

"prey drive" used in Schutzhund terms is the dog's genetic motivation which are stimulated by moving objects.

It's never too high.

It not enough when the dogs is no longer stimulated. At some point the dog will reach a threshold to quit working.

I have never seen a dog go through a wall, but if have such a dog that would be very high prey drive.

Obedience is obedience this has nothing to do with how high or low the prey drive is. If the dog continues after his toy after being called off means the trainer is a poor trainer, it has nothing to do with the dog's motivations.

[brodster]

You can never have enough prey drive in a working dog provding there is also a solid amount of fight drive and defense in the animal. A dog with all prey is useless in any serious protection scenario.

I find that with high prey drive dogs, develping focus in them is just that much easier.

Low prey drive dogs (my 3yr old) are quite difficult to motivate, and the protection work can be a little more stressful initially.

Just my two cents

[Butcher'sDog2]

Obelix, I think you'd do better to get an answer if you define your needs/objectives with your dog.

I don't like drive theory in general but prey is probably the most obvious drive if one were to call it that. In essence prey drive refers to the dogs interest in a moving object. It is first evident in nature when a puppy's attention is drawn to a flying insect or another puppy with an object in its mouth, this triggers a chase. It is the same drive that then develops into hunting and playing. In nature however it is a balanced drive that functions for the wild canid in dependence of many other factors which temper it. For example in nature you will not find prey drive so strong that a canid will jump off a cliff to go after a rabbit. Dogs have been known to jump off balconies due to prey stimulation, or do illogical things like bite the tires of a moving truck getting hurt in the process.

Prey drive takes many twists when dealing with domesticated dogs. It has been selectively bred for to some extreme levels. It is the foundation for things like herding behavior, fighting in game bred dogs and many other things other than the desire to chase a ball of bite a sleeve.

For my purposes I prefer what I like to call big prey drive as opposed to small prey drive. What I mean by small prey drive is a dog that is content to focus on a ball or a sleeve as his drive outlet. I like a dog that sees a bigger picture and will focus his prey drive on the man as a whole. This allows for a true meshing between prey and defense which combined produce what I call aggression. This is absolutely necessary for real man work.

For my purposes I do not like a dog that is obsessed with a ball but for someone training a dog for narcotics detection it is probably absolutely necessary.