Passing health certs before Working?

[Skip]

Just asking for opinions here. I think it would be a great idea if all working venue organizations...SchH, Agility, Weight Pulling, etc...had some rules in place requiring all dog to have passing hips, elbows, and heart certs. I doubt it will happen anytime soon, but I was curious about opinions here. There are some small steps being made here (but in conformation), since USRC now requires all show entrants over 30 months old to at least have done OFA on hips..it can still be a failing score at this point, but at least it's a step in the right direction...in my opinion.

[Gunsey'sMom]

I think it is a good idea. I would wnt to know that I would not be dong damage to my dog. I wanted to have a cart for Gunner but wasnt really sure if was a good idea without making sure if he was medically okay to do it. And I wasnt really even concerned about competition level or anything, this is just to give him some extra exercise and a job. But I really am hesitant to even start anything off- even purchasing the harness, without going ahead and having him checked out.

I wonder if I am being crazy, since I am really not planning on being in carting or pulling trials, or if this is the right thing to do. I feel this is for the safety of my dog.

And on another note, for the people who are competing for titles and such- proving their dogs, I think this is a good way to see what these dogs already are healthwise.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Gunsey'sMom

I think it is a good idea. I would wnt to know that I would not be dong damage to my dog. I wanted to have a cart for Gunner but wasnt really sure if was a good idea without making sure if he was medically okay to do it. And I wasnt really even concerned about competition level or anything, this is just to give him some extra exercise and a job. But I really am hesitant to even start anything off- even purchasing the harness, without going ahead and having him checked out.

I wonder if I am being crazy, since I am really not planning on being in carting or pulling trials, or if this is the right thing to do. I feel this is for the safety of my dog.

And on another note, for the people who are competing for titles and such- proving their dogs, I think this is a good way to see what these dogs already are healthwise.

I don't feel this is a crazy thought at all...I definitely, whole-heartedly agree with you.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by Gunsey'sMom

I think it is a good idea. I would wnt to know that I would not be dong damage to my dog. I wanted to have a cart for Gunner but wasnt really sure if was a good idea without making sure if he was medically okay to do it. And I wasnt really even concerned about competition level or anything, this is just to give him some extra exercise and a job. But I really am hesitant to even start anything off- even purchasing the harness, without going ahead and having him checked out.

I wonder if I am being crazy, since I am really not planning on being in carting or pulling trials, or if this is the right thing to do. I feel this is for the safety of my dog.

And on another note, for the people who are competing for titles and such- proving their dogs, I think this is a good way to see what these dogs already are healthwise.

This is why I always recommend people to get their pet/companion dogs x-rayed for hips and elbows when they have them spayed/neutered. It's only about $80-100. extra...and gives you peace of mind.

We had Baxter done at 14 months when he was neutered and he started pulling a sled at about 18-19 months of age. I knew that his hips and elbows were fine.

If I ever have to have him sedated for anything again...I will have new x-rays taken and send them to OFA.

I think clubs and organizations should be asking for certs....it may cut down on problems in the future.

Gina

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Skip

Just asking for opinions here. I think it would be a great idea if all working venue organizations...SchH, Agility, Weight Pulling, etc...had some rules in place requiring all dog to have passing hips, elbows, and heart certs. .

i disagree with this due to there are several mix breeds involved and the above venues are for fun and competition. if my dog would fail hips or elbows i would continue working him in the sport depending on the severity maybe just tracking or enter protection events most dogs even if they are dysplastic(to an extent) work pretty well up till about 6 and after that you dont have to do the wall and the jump anyway so continue the work the dog loves and you love until they cant then retire. i know a guy that has a moderatly dysplastic shepherd and at 9 years old he is still competing at a regional level until this year. you simply just dont breed the dog

[Gunsey'sMom]

I see what you are saying Larry. At least this guy knows where his dogs lies healthwise, which is better than nothing IMO. I think a first step would be at least having certs done required. Maybe the importance of health certs and their effect on our dogs can be brought in to the light a little bit that way.

And what you are talking about is still looking out for the health and safety of the dog. If the dog is still up to the task, let them have at it-it would be similarly unfair to prevent a hard working dog from being active.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by lblax

i disagree with this due to there are several mix breeds involved and the above venues are for fun and competition. if my dog would fail hips or elbows i would continue working him in the sport depending on the severity maybe just tracking or enter protection events most dogs even if they are dysplastic(to an extent) work pretty well up till about 6 and after that you dont have to do the wall and the jump anyway so continue the work the dog loves and you love until they cant then retire. i know a guy that has a moderatly dysplastic shepherd and at 9 years old he is still competing at a regional level until this year. you simply just dont breed the dog

I know rotts can't be singled out for the certs, but I wish they could be. I know several that are displastic and trialing...and not showing much discomfort, but how do we know how much pain they are hiding/ignoring beacause of their drive. I TOTALLY disagree that "you simply just dont breed the dog. I think too many human egos are involved if they simply can't just make sure that it's safe to subject the dog to the sport. I think this would also force owners to seek out better breeders that do all the health certs on their dogs (not that that guarantees great health on all pups, but it sure as hell helps). I think it would be very good for the betterment of the breed.

[Gunsey'sMom]

Ideally I am agreeance with passing health certs like you first posted, Skip- but I just think its way too far away. Too many people will absolutely balk at that like a "rights" issue almost, and there are lots of sides to it. If the certs are required Pass/Fail just so they are done, maybe that would be balked at but doable eventually and maybe happen sooner? What do you think about that? At least that way what the dog is working with is out on the table.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Gunsey'sMom

Ideally I am agreeance with passing health certs like you first posted, Skip- but I just think its way too far away. Too many people will absolutely balk at that like a "rights" issue almost, and there are lots of sides to it. If the certs are required Pass/Fail just so they are done, maybe that would be balked at but doable eventually and maybe happen sooner? What do you think about that? At least that way what the dog is working with is out on the table.

I think that would be a great start.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Skip

I I know several that are displastic and trialing...and not showing much discomfort, but how do we know how much pain they are hiding/ignoring beacause of their drive. .

it would be a ashame if a rott had the drive to work through much pain just to let it sit because its hard enough to find the one that has enough drive to do the work in perfect health. for the most part the dogs you see getting worked that may have health problems are people that its just there dog and there there for fun what do you want to do not start dogs until 2 after the certs????? or do you want do get 2 years of training in and partial bite work then have them fail certs and tell the people hit the road with your dog. either way it simply doesnt work. if its any consolation to you there is a vast differance on how working and show people look at dogs show people have the opinion that conformation is everything and working breeders believe work without conformation come to an early end to the work. a good example is to look at the gsd show dog dragging there azz an inch off the floor while they very well may have all there certs they break down under the physical stress of training fast.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by lblax

it would be a ashame if a rott had the drive to work through much pain just to let it sit because its hard enough to find the one that has enough drive to do the work in perfect health. for the most part the dogs you see getting worked that may have health problems are people that its just there dog and there there for fun what do you want to do not start dogs until 2 after the certs????? or do you want do get 2 years of training in and partial bite work then have them fail certs and tell the people hit the road with your dog. either way it simply doesnt work. if its any consolation to you there is a vast differance on how working and show people look at dogs show people have the opinion that conformation is everything and working breeders believe work without conformation come to an early end to the work. a good example is to look at the gsd show dog dragging there azz an inch off the floor while they very well may have all there certs they break down under the physical stress of training fast.

This is where you and I disagree big time larry...if I knew the dog was in pain, I would treat the dog's pain and find other less strenuous outlets. I think it would be a GREAT idea if all rotts over the age of 2 would just have to have the health certs done, pass or fail for now. If they want to work a failing rott, at least it's out there and people would know that the rott should not be bred. You and I both know a lot of people breed their rotts just because of "drive", with no health checks at all. Conformation is not "everything" to a lot of people, but bettering the breed is...and that involves a lot more than "drive".

[poohbearsmom]

While I think that your heart is in the right place, Skip, I also think your glasses are a little too rose colored.

I concur with Larry on this one.

I know of a Dutch Shepherd who did VERY well in PP sports, scaled walls in a single bound, etc... had CHD but worked because he had the drives and heart to do it. I think that working a dog who'd CHD is not necessarily bad... one just needs to decide up front how much discomfort they are willing to let their dog be in vs the satisfaction (for lack of a better word) the dog gets from the work.

In addition, I'm certainly not going to wait until a dog is 2 years old to begin training for SchH or any other physically demanding sport that tickles my fancy. Even promising pups who are physically sound can wash out for one reason or another.

And CHD presents itself differently depending upon the dog... some dogs can have mild CHD and be gimpy as hell... and some can have moderate to severe dysplasia on film and be happy and yappy and ready to go go go... it's not really black and white, IMO.

My own CHD dog has developed a very high pain threshold over the years.. I quit working him when I found out, because I was petrified of hurting him... I now would be less prone to do that.

SchH and other sport venues are not the breed ring. There's a dog I've seen work, that I would love to breed to because of his abilities... but, his owner will not do hip xrays on him. The owner simply doesn't want to know. That's fine, I'll go elsewhere - more because I want to maintain my COE status with the ARC than anything else.

There are many people who simply title their dogs for breeding purposes, and the dog never sees a trial field again. I like what training does for my relationship with my animal, what I can learn from working with the animal, and the look I get from the dog when we are connecting at that very primal level.... sooooo my decision to work a dog would depend upon the severity of the malady, and the dog's ability to rise above it.

With all that in mind, I like to prelim my young dogs for my own edification.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Skip

I think it would be a GREAT idea if all rotts over the age of 2 would just have to have the health certs done, pass or fail for now. If they want to work a failing rott, at least it's out there and people would know that the rott should not be bred. You and I both know a lot of people breed their rotts just because of "drive", with no health checks at all. ".

i agree that i would like to see all purebred dogs at 2 have hips/elbows done and as far as people breeding just for drive that does happen and lotts of times those breedings are not open to the general public but this is where education as a buyer and doing the resurch before buying comes into play. as far as working t through pain if its a problem or the dog is in pain then track do protection but you simply cant say if your dog does not pass certs you cant compete or belong. i really would like to know what would have to be done if this was the case do you want to wait until 2 to start the dogs training?? or do you want to train the dog for 2 years and then get booted either way its not good for the dog or handler.people would simply move to or form new orginizations you simply cant let a dog sit for 2 years to start training, youve been around a long time and im sure you have seen dogs come to the club at 2 years old some do ok others fail miserably or at best mediocre. let me explain what i aid earlier a little better a show breeder breeds for the perfect conformation mostly regardless of drive..... a good working breeder breeds for drive and conformation with conformation meaning size/color/ teeth and physically correct so in short meeting the breed standards but not nescarily the prettiest. a good working breeder knows that drive without the proper physical attributes(conformation) cannot work for long as the dog needs both to work. just like a conformationally perfect show dog breaks under the pressure of working training the high drive dog that does not meet standards breaks down phyiscally.

[Skip]

I said a good place to start NOW is to mandate to have the health certs after 2 years old. I didn't say to make it it a requirement to have all passing scores NOW, but the results would be on the table for all to see.

[poohbearsmom]

But Skip, you'll never get everyone to agree as Larry said. They'll just go form different clubs, and really... if someone isn't willing to health test their dog, there are PLENTY of other dogs to breed to that are.

I'm a full disclosure type of grrrl... not everyone is... and that's what makes this world a great place...