Passing health certs before Working?

[fbkeays]

I retired my Misty from obedience after she was dx with lymphoma. She had grade 2 elbows to boot. She started to eat the furnature. Having a CDX and I having never done utility, it was a training experience. Misty competed a dozen times in the utility ring before she died. She loved doing it and she loved doing it with me.
I start my dogs young in training. I don't ask them to jump full height at 4 months old or anything like that, but they do go through the motions. I do prelims and health certifications for ME, not anyone else. I think I would be upset if there was some rule saying I had to do certain health certs and depending on the outcome, was what I was "allowed" to do with my dog.
I think it is much better to positively encourage then to mandate. Perhaps someone could offer a cool trophy for the highest scoring dog with a CHIC number? I have offered a rotteiler head tie pin for the highest scoring male handler at my club's specialty obedience trial because there weren't any men competing. Suddenly we had nearly half the competitors being men.

[laurlitt]

I don't think any rules like this should exist... It should be up to the handler/owner what they want to do with the dog. My bitch has an elbow the is grade 1... Who is going to tell me that she can't compete in SchH... Better yet... I dare someone to tell her that...

I appreciate the right (freedom) to be trusted with making the right decisions for my dogs. and I appreciate the right to be able to enter working venues with my dog... It is bad enough she has a missing tooth and I couldn't show or breed her.

Our 10 year old male w/ severe hip dysplasia was very active in Sch. training for many years... You would have never known he had a problem...

My 2 cents...

[lblax]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

. My bitch has an elbow the is grade 1... Who is going to tell me that she can't compete in SchH... Better yet... I dare someone to tell her that...

.

elbows are still a very grey area in ofa statistics i wouldnt be afraid to breed her its hard to find dogs that are actually worked that dont have grade 1 her slight problem is more in likely from compression in training than a inherited defect

[mferg]

It's really hard enough to get people out there seriously working their dogs that we don't have to throw more roadblocks at them. I'm one of the horrible ones that worked her dog right up until she died at a too young age of 6.5 years without once doing a single health certification. I knew she had at least one bad elbow, possibly two. She had limping issues as a young dog, I took her to a ortho specialist and did a series of x-rays that showed problems (one leg bone was growing longer than the other). He said he'd rate her as dysplastic. I already knew she was never going to be bred because of her overbite.

I made sure I didn't ask too much of her. I didn't do anything with her until the limping I presented her to the vet with went away. I was careful on her jumping. I kept her good and lean to reduce stress. I never did road work or any great amounts of extended running with her. I swam her when I could, etc. I had/have the intelligence to know how much to ask of the dog and when to quit. She achieved SchH2 (2 or 3 points shy of SchH3), FH2, BH, CD, TD, CGC. I never did agility, weight pulling, carting, or flyball with her. I felt those would have been unfair activities to put her through.

I never did the certs mainly because she was spayed and I knew she was never going to be bred. I don't deny that it would have been nice if I'd at least done her hips just to see what they were (littermate is excellent) and to share with her breeder. I never got around to it.

Personally, I don't believe a dog should have to have passing hips to be able to be shown in conformation. Nowhere in the breed standard does it say the dog must have passing hips to conform. I know conformation is a breeding tool, but I also consider it a sport that people should be able to have the right to participate in with their dogs.

I know mine is not a very popular view. It is the responsibility of the prospective puppy buyer and/or breeding partner scout to research the health statistics of the candidate dogs. I get pretty irritated at being dictated at about all the health clearances being mandatory in order to participate in these venues. I consider them a tool for breeding, not for participation. Lots of humans with health limitations have achieved great things in spite of their afflictions. Why can't the dogs do the same?

[Marylou Mader]

This is a good thread and I too feel that dogs should be health checked before working, the strain of Agility, SchH, carting, weight pulling, flyball, etc.

One must understand that if a constraint to only allow passing dogs then we would delete nearly 1/2 of all Rottweilers, as the percentage of Elbow Dysplasia is at about 47%

[Liz]

So a dog like Mark Natinsky's Tarzan v Schwaiger Wappen should never have been allowed to compete? There are other good competition dogs of many breeds with bad hips and/or elbows.

I'm currently working a dog with mild unilateral HD and you're welcome to come and see her work - John Bernard worked her for a few minutes when we were at your sanctioning match. She loves it - I worry about the jumps, but so far she's shown no reluctance at all, and no pain of any sort. She is spayed of course. Bruti is ED+, he's 6xSCH3 ZtP ABST, a little over ten years old and still shows no problems with his elbows.

Schutzhund is a sport, not a breeding title.

Liz

[Liz]

Originally Posted by mferg

Personally, I don't believe a dog should have to have passing hips to be able to be shown in conformation. Nowhere in the breed standard does it say the dog must have passing hips to conform. I know conformation is a breeding tool, but I also consider it a sport that people should be able to have the right to participate in with their dogs.

Franny and I agree

Seriously - if the conformation ring shows you what dogs are producing, how does leaving the dysplastic dogs out help? Don't you want to see ALL of that dog or bitches production?

And I do also tell people that if Franny's sire and dam were bred again I would take another puppy and another chance in a heartbeat, I couldn't ask for a better girl.

Liz

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Marylou Mader

One must understand that if a constraint to only allow passing dogs then we would delete nearly 1/2 of all Rottweilers, as the percentage of Elbow Dysplasia is at about 47%

same thing for all the other working breeds approximatly then you take another 50% of whats left in the gsd out that just cant do the work and take 75% of the rotts out of the 1/2 you have left and what do you have.. you are only allowing 1/2 to compete from the start and out of the 1/2 you'll have 50 to 75% that get washed for other reasons sounds like a barrel of fun.. i agree with liz she works her dog at 10 years old GOOD MUSCLE GOES A LONG WAY

[damp]

Originally Posted by Marylou Mader

This is a good thread and I too feel that dogs should be health checked before working, the strain of Agility, SchH, carting, weight pulling, flyball, etc.

.... and in the meantime, until the health certification is done, we just sit on the couch and pet our dog and of course, (as the responsible owner we are) we always keep attention to our dog, so it doesn't fall off the couch and injures itself!!!!

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Personally, I think that we don't need any more excuses for people to decide they don't need to work their dogs. Many, many more dogs of all breeds suffer greatly due to lack of something to do than they ever will because of bad joints...sometimes it's because their lack of fitness or overweight state take a toll on their bodies, more often because their boredom takes a toll on their minds, resulting in behaviors that makes them pets that are difficult for their owners to handle.

I also think that we're under the impression that a non-passing OFA automatically equates to pain for the dog. While it's true in some cases, in most, nothing could be further from the truth. We all can site MANY examples of clinically sound dogs who have had big careers in various venues. Not because of the ego of the handler, but because the dog truly loves to work. To ask these dogs to sit at home rather than doing what they love would be to tell everyone one of us with neck/back/knee pain etc. that we are no longer allowed to live our lives as we choose. I would venture to say that there are more HANDLERS out there working through pain than dogs.

I do agree that it's advantageous for every working dog to be radiographed prior to competing, so that we as owners can make the best possible choices. However, this can be accomplished though education and mentoring far easier than mandating. I have competed in just about every venue and can honestly say that, in every one, exhibitors who notice a dog struggling due to physical inability are quick to point it out to the owner and suggest that training be set aside until they know what they're dealing with. I can also point out that, from experience, when it becomes evident that a competitor is more interested in wins than the dog's well-being, word travels quickly and these people find it difficult to obtain future dogs. Nobody wants to see a dog hurting and they typically look out for each other in that regard.

Lastly, we will often find that the most debilitating problems that working dogs face are items we don't have screening for... disorders of back or neck vertebrae, OCDs other than in the elbow, sesamoiditis, ACL tears etc. Further, some dogs OFA fully clear yet, for reasons unknown, are still never fully sound. Requiring a CHIC certificate to work may give people a false sense of security, assuming that because the dog has been x-rayed, he must be sound, leading them to overlook signs of far bigger problems than hips or elbows. In my opinion, the best prevention is paying close attention to our dogs and listening to what they tell us.

Just my random thoughts...

[Skip]

I can see where mandating PASSING certs would not be a fair condition, but I still feel that requiring the certs (pass or fail) once the dog reached the required age for testing is a good thing. The dog would still be able to compete as before...and the dog could still compete before the certs are done at the proper age...but I still think having the results out there would benefit the breed. I understand there are a lot of people and dogs that love the sport, and there are a lot of people that look to the working side for future pups...I just think having the certs known (pass or fail once the dog reaches testing age) could help the breed by giving more info to all those interested in knowing about the health of the dogs...whether for future breeding, or just competing in the sports. But then again, I like the idea of requiring health certs (pass or fail) for ANY venue...work or show.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by lblax

elbows are still a very grey area in ofa statistics i wouldnt be afraid to breed her its hard to find dogs that are actually worked that dont have grade 1 her slight problem is more in likely from compression in training than a inherited defect

I cried like a baby when I sent her off to be spayed last December :( The missing tooth was the biggest reason why she wasn't bred (I would have still bred her w/ the 1 elbow, although my highly respected ortho-vet didn't recommend it!).

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by Ann Felske-Jackman

In my opinion, the best prevention is paying close attention to our dogs and listening to what they tell us.

This statement sums it up.
So many people don't listen to their dogs. So many people don't understand that they can listen to their dogs. So many people think that obedience is a one way relationship. I have stopped attending certain training clubs (AKC) because of this attitude. I have been called too soft on my dogs, but I am not going to insist my dogs do something that they honestly can't do. Life is too short.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

I cried like a baby when I sent her off to be spayed last December :( The missing tooth was the biggest reason why she wasn't bred (I would have still bred her w/ the 1 elbow, although my highly respected ortho-vet didn't recommend it!).

we had a dog in our club have grd.1 elbows a vet from the ofa told him that the ofa does not have enough years of comparisons like they do with hips so if they see anything its grade 1 the dog was formed great genetically but is a kangaroo always jumping he took the dog and got a series of injections(not sure what they were but it had to do with bovine cartlidge) re-xrayed and the dog cam back clear