Early indications of a good level of directability or willngness

[Butcher'sDog2]

Mick made some good points about a good working dog possessing a good degree of directability. I love hearing about this. Most people don't pay enough attention to this aspect of the dog's temperament. I think it is just as important as aggression in a working dog seeing as how the dog is a companion too. How do you gauge directability in a dog and how do you recognize the early signs of it in a puppy? It seems that rotts with good directability are few and far between these days.

I gave directability my own little definition which may not appear very specific on the surface yet its pretty deep; "Willingness is the quality of the dog that makes it a pleasure to own".

[lblax]

i looked for 2 years for a breeding that not only should have very high fight and courage and good prey drive but also have good directability and i bekieve i found the pup that fills these credentials he has tons of prey drive but yet is totally focused on the man, he has been unflappable in every situation ive had him in and has quite the attitude about anything he does but yet he is not the dominate type dog that has high drive and goes by there own means of satisfying his drives alone. he follows my leads and directions but yet satisfies his own drive he is very happy in his spot and not a high rank dog wanting to climb to the top. at 5 months old whenever you take him to training you dont have to build drive like many rotts ive known it's there just like he turns on a switch, he is not easily distracted even as a pup whatever we are doing at the club its like he shuts everything else thats going on around him, its just me him and a helper you can tell thats where his mind is at. i dont know really how to explain what specifics to look for in a pup to see this i just believe that for us that work dogs its just something you just feel i think you summed it up pretty well

"Willingness is the quality of the dog that makes it a pleasure to own".

[Butcher'sDog2]

To make sure we're on the same page as far as the meaning of willingness here are couple of examples on a theoretical and practical level.

Theoretical,
A dog that has a degree of willingness has an innate trust that his master/leader will do what is necessary for both to survive. This requires giving in or not showing too much opposition in a situation where something is required of the dog that goes against what the dog wants to do. It could have its base in obedience to the bitch. A bitch in natural surroundings, allowing expression of more complex behaviors, may require that the pups restrict themselves to a certain area or that they be quiet, things that their life may depend on. This eventually may fade as the dog grows and gains his independence. I don't know to what extent mature canines in a natural setting impose behavior on one another. Maybe willingness extended into adulthood is a function of dogs retaining an immature puppy quality for most of their lives. There is a word for this that I can't remember. Anyways these are just my conjectures not be taken as factual.

Practical,
A dog is not designed to deal with the complexities of modern day living. Some things it just can't understand and must be protected from by its master. A dog may wish to run across a street busy with car traffic but if it does so it will be killed. The master insists that the dog avoid the street. The dogs survival depends on the its level of willingness. If the dog is has low directability the master will need to put too much pressure on the dog to make it obey. Many people simply are not ready to do this and the result is a dog that is not under control, in this situation a dead dog.

[Mick Trainer]

Just to clarify a little further you are asking for what signs to look for to indicate directablility in a young pup (sub 8 weeks old)?

Mick.

[Butcher'sDog2]

I'm interested in all examples/indications of willingness in adult dogs, puppies 2-8 months and puppies at 7-8 weeks (this can be used in selection). I am more interested in stories as opposed to tests. For example; the situation was so and so and the dog reacted in this way. I find tests to not be conclusive. For example the farmers test; the pup is picked up by the scruff and should be calm with limbs hanging down, this may or may not be related to directability as far as the test was intended but I know that the correct reaction which is for the pup to relax does not translate into directability later on. The forgiveness test may or may not be and indication of directability, I have not made a conclusion on it yet.

Here's one of my experiences with regards to directability in a pup. One of the first things I teach a puppy is to go in his crate. The first few days I pick it up and put him inside. I also put a flat collar on him and let him get used to it during this time. Once there is some comfort level with the crate and the collar I will put a finger in the collar and pull the pup in the crate. All puppies resist this at first. The willing pup will get over it within two or three days and will start walking in the direction of the pull. After 2-3 days of this I can pull on the collar and let go a couple of feet from the crate and the pup continues into the crate on his own. Another 2-3 days and I just pull on the collar a little and he goes all the way to the crate on his own. The next step is to associate a command.

A pup with low willingness will resist the pull more and more every time. As the days go by instead of getting used to the idea of being directed by a pull on the collar his opposition grows.

Do not confuse this with training to go inside the crate using food rewards. Food rewards can be used in conjunction with what I described but to use only food rewards masks the true level of willingness which is important to find out.

[frontierrots]

Personally (and this is just MY opinion) the pup you describe as "willing" ie willing to to as bid for no reason other than asked (I'm talking pre training here not a trained dog) "I" would call extremely biddable and a tad soft.

The pup you describe as having "low willingness" I see as a pup that uses it's brain and rationalizes that payment is required in the learning process (ie treat) in order to justify getting shut in a crate as a good thing. An independent thinker, a problem solver, a pup that does not need me to tell it what to do every second

While the first pup (your high willingness) would be an easy pup for a novice to train, it's not the pup "I" would want

[VomWactherEngel]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

Personally (and this is just MY opinion) the pup you describe as "willing" ie willing to to as bid for no reason other than asked (I'm talking pre training here not a trained dog) "I" would call extremely biddable and a tad soft.

The pup you describe as having "low willingness" I see as a pup that uses it's brain and rationalizes that payment is required in the learning process (ie treat) in order to justify getting shut in a crate as a good thing. An independent thinker, a problem solver, a pup that does not need me to tell it what to do every second

While the first pup (your high willingness) would be an easy pup for a novice to train, it's not the pup "I" would want

I agree 100%.

I would much rather have a hard puppy and tone it down a bit than try to build up a soft puppy. I believe the "williness" that the OP wants in an adult comes from bonding through training and fair treatment.

[Butcher'sDog2]

There is much resistance to the concept of biddability/directability/willingness among working dog owners/breeders/trainers in North America.

Willingness however is genetic and has nothing to do with catering to a dog to produce the illusion of willingness, such as the way it is done in SCH training, with the dog looking up at your face during obedience because he's used to food rewards coming from the mouth. A willing dog will look at your face naturally.

frontier, when you say "a pup that uses it's brain and rationalizes that payment is required in the learning process (ie treat) in order to justify getting shut in a crate as a good thing. An independent thinker, a problem solver, a pup that does not need me to tell it what to do every second", in what area would this independent thinking dog use the qualities you described to meet your requirements?

My requirements are that the dog protect myself, my family, my property. I used to think that in order to have a strong dog it must also be a strong headed dog that requires strong corrections to bring it under control. The reason I believed this is because most of the tough dogs I saw were like this. I also thought that if in the end I can get the dog to do what I need it to do (and I can) then I'm not going to worry about willingness.That is not however the way it has to be. I do not enjoy any longer dealing with hard headed dogs because I know there's an alternative. Had enough breeders paid attention to this trait it would be more present in today's rottweiler. Willingness is independent of the dogs other temperament qualities necessary for protection work. There is a reason why the German breed survey lists willingness as one of the scoring categories.

If you want to see a soft dog with little willingness but very high aggression (will not back down from anything) you should check out some of the molosser breeds. These dogs will pee themselves if the master looks hard at them, possessing very little trainability. The willing rottweiler however recovers easily from corrections with just a little praise.

[Mick Trainer]

I wil get back to this topic as soon as I can write a decent enough reply but quickly handler hardness and "willingness" or "Directability" are completely different things. A dog can be very hard and even handler hard but still directable. It certainly does not show a lack of brains or being an independant thinker etc.

Mick.

[Butcher'sDog2]

I'd like to add that the pursuit of an invented ideal in conformation and temperament is impossible. However, people still attempt it and in the process realize that they'll have to let something go to keep something else. The rottweiler having turned into a show dog the first thing they carelessly dropped was willingness.

[frontierrots]

I did not say I wanted a hard headed dog, I want one that is always thinking. High intelligence and trainability are at the top of my requirements.

I NEVER use hard physical corrections and never even use a choke of any kind in the training process. I also don't spit food to the dog to teach attention

I can guarantee you that no one will be breaking into my house or car or mugging me with Bea or Bill handy. They'd be sorry people and yet my dogs as pups would have failed your willingness test

I believe Mick is right in that willingness and bidability (especially in the extreme) are very different from directibility. I do want handler bidability otherwise you have a hard time training a dog but I also want a dog to think always. Problem solve always. Not always looking to me for the answer to a dillema

Granted I do not do PP or Sch. But do advanced tracking and wildlife recovery and both require a dog to figure out problems and to a lesser extent does some obedience routines as I will not "pattern train" the dogs

[Butcher'sDog2]

frontier, once again you don't have a clue about the subject of the thread. You'd do better to ask questions about it and then I'd feel inclined to explain as opposed to diluting the issue with your irrelevant perceptions.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Butcher'sDog2

I'd like to add that the pursuit of an invented ideal in conformation and temperament is impossible. However, people still attempt it and in the process realize that they'll have to let something go to keep something else. The rottweiler having turned into a show dog the first thing they carelessly dropped was willingness.

the breed eventually will evolve into two seperate breeds in one like the gsd if you stand a show gsd and a working line gsd side by side they are totally differant dogs in all ways. people believe that because there show dog has dogs with working titles scattered through the pedigree that they have a working dog and i believe it is vurtually impossible to have a dog that excells at both and the few that do are misunderstood by there owners and never make progress in either venue its been my obsevation over the years that show people think that conformation is everything and that a dog will work because its a certain breed but working people know that without proper conformation(not always the prettieast) the dog cant hold up to the work over time

[frontierrots]

Butchersdog
Obviously you think you know all about these dogs. Your every post basically states your idea of a fact and then you wait for someone to voice an opinion so you can dispute it with authority

I have had REAL Rottweilers for almost 23 years. I have trained dogs for almost as long, I have helped people with behavior problems, taught people how to "read dog" and helped dogs isolated from their own kind learn to "speak dog"

I have read your posts about training your dogs and your friends dog and ya know what? You don't know squat about real dog behavior, real dog language and real Rottweilers. Instead of bemoaning the defects in the dogs you've worked take a look at your training methods and Go get a Malinois to ruin and leave the Rotts alone

Don't bother getting in a huff and posting back because I'm done with you

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by lblax

and i believe it is vurtually impossible to have a dog that excells at both and the few that do are misunderstood by there owners and never make progress in either venue

Sorry, would have to disagree, strongly, with you here! Having had 2 Rottie males that have excelled both in show and their respective working venue (as well as having success in other venues in which I competed with them) and having 2 more that are well on their way, I know well that they exist! And I would not say that I, or anyone else, "misunderstood" them!

While I would agree that many are quick to think they have a work and/or show litter based on titles buried 3 generations back in their pedigree, I also believe that there are many more "work capable" dogs out there than one might be led to believe by the numbers actually working. I base that on dogs that I have actually seen as I travel around the US that, I believe, are being underutilized.

Why they are underutilized, especially in the working venues, can be attributed to a wide variety of causes as we have discussed before. I am "lucky" because I am single and have an income whether I am working or not so can dedicate myself to working and showing my dogs (just gets a bit limited when I am not working!). But even in my case, I do not currently have access to my sport of choice with my dogs so I am doing something else with them.

Others could be limited by time - let's face it, showing doesn't take a whole lot of time when compared to the working venues! - finances, family obligations, availability of training and yes, sadly, even interest. It remains incumbent on those of us that love our Rotties as a working breed to do all we can to excel in our working venues, to showcase those successes and maintain the heritage that gave it to us.