Early indications of a good level of directability or willngness

[RottsNScotts]

Butcher - don't get caught up in that "herding" is sheep! I think you will see that many of the cattle herding breeds are rather substantial for their respective sizes. Even looking at the Australian Cattle Dog, a relatively young breed compared to Rotties, you are going to see a pretty wedgy kind of head (although not with the pronounced stop but their heads are at kick level) and a solid, short, retangularish body.

Since I worked a street police dog - albeit a GSD (department's choice) - I have had quite a bit of experience in "real" protection work. There were a couple of patrol Rotties that trained with us that I spent quite a bit of time with as well.

So yes, I have experience with "real" protection dogs that are biddable. I can promise that my first Rottie was all that you are describing and I believe my current male has the potential to show that he is the same; just bad luck that the opportunities are not available. I am seeing the parts I like but the proof is only in the time and demands of training and trialing.

You would probably disagree that trialing is a proper test and, if one stays at their home field, on home helpers and trials only once for their III, I would agree. However, if one trials at regional (depending on the region), national and world levels, I believe it is a fair test. And I wouldn't even say that the score necessarily matters; it is what the TEAM brings to the field in all 3 phases.

Mick - I have YET to own a dog of any large breed that is aloof even to strangers (my Scotties are! LOL)! And it is my preference that this be so. My police dog was our city's first so it was critical that he be approachable and I have not seen any reason a general use working dog needs to be aloof. So far, I have found social dogs to be more confident dogs and more confident dogs have been, in my experience, stronger working dogs - on the street and in sport. But this is just my experience and observations.

And I would never chose a dog that was aloof to me as its owner/handler; doesn't fit into how I like my dogs to be and how I like to train them.

I also forgot to give my second Rottie full credit for his achievements; he was also a co-winner of the ARC Top Twenty competition...

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

Mick - I have YET to own a dog of any large breed that is aloof even to strangers (my Scotties are! LOL)! And it is my preference that this be so. My police dog was our city's first so it was critical that he be approachable and I have not seen any reason a general use working dog needs to be aloof. So far, I have found social dogs to be more confident dogs and more confident dogs have been, in my experience, stronger working dogs - on the street and in sport. But this is just my experience and observations.

I totally agree. My above comment regarding aloofness to me as a stranger was only a joke though I would not discount a dog because of it. My preference as well is always to have a dog that is outwardly social to all new comers until I tell it not to be etc. I like a dog to actively seek a pet when ever offered. As you said this shows a higher degree of confidence and more importantly it gives me the greatest flexability when it comes to what I can do with the dog.

I further agree that a dog that is outwardly aloof to the handler has little appeal and really what i would actively breed away from. It is why I will not breed to a great many of the more popular studs as I see a large percetage of these types of dogs in their offspring. Both of the two most well used stud dogs here I would argue produce such temperaments.

Mick.

[RottsNScotts]

My saying? "Bite like an alligator (would that be "crocodile" for you???) then SLIME everyone!" LOL!

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

I see standouts in ability and directability all over the place. (Must be the people HCElsa and I run with and around!) I would say that it must be the circles you frequent to some proportion as I don't see many Rottweilers I would put into this catagory. Whilst there clearly are dogs around with solid directability a large number of the dogs I see now days (both well and BYB bred) carry high social dominance and are often down right aloof. Few for me have the high level of directability I would seek.

Mick - I was thinking about this...I think what I see more of are a large number of dogs who have been offering behaviors like mad all their young lives and had nothing but adverse reactions from their owners/handlers which resulted in the dog shutting down. It is my biggest frustration when watching folks train their dogs that most are completely incapable of recognizing their dog's attempts to do what they are being asked, even if they have no clue what it is that is wanted!, and seeing the owner/handler either not recognize and acknowledge the attempt or, worse yet, CORRECTING it!

I give the analogy of telling a 4 year old child to say the alphabet then popping them on the top of the head when it is wrong! How many times does one think they are going to TRY???? I think that not acknowledging an offered behavior/correcting it ends up in the attitude you describe; dog "withdraws" because he has offered his heart multiple times only to have it stomped on!

It is why I cannot abide giving lessons to the general public; they drive me MAD!

[Mick Trainer]

Mick - I was thinking about this...I think what I see more of are a large number of dogs who have been offering behaviors like mad all their young lives and had nothing but adverse reactions from their owners/handlers which resulted in the dog shutting down. It is my biggest frustration when watching folks train their dogs that most are completely incapable of recognizing their dog's attempts to do what they are being asked, even if they have no clue what it is that is wanted!, and seeing the owner/handler either not recognize and acknowledge the attempt or, worse yet, CORRECTING it!

I give the analogy of telling a 4 year old child to say the alphabet then popping them on the top of the head when it is wrong! How many times does one think they are going to TRY???? I think that not acknowledging an offered behavior/correcting it ends up in the attitude you describe; dog "withdraws" because he has offered his heart multiple times only to have it stomped on!

It is why I cannot abide giving lessons to the general public; they drive me MAD! There is absolutly no doubt a number of the dogs I see have been treated as such and act accordingly yet I still see a larger amount of such dogs now than I have in the past when the handling and training was much harder and more compulsive based than it is now days. I truly feel that breeders are using dogs that show such behavior more than they have in the past. Don't get me wrong it is not all Rotts etc but I see it alot. Now there is no doubt that due top what I do I see the ones with problems and my sample group would be considered small and so many of them come from the same few sires but there is no doubt to me that I see less truly directable, strong dogs than I have in the past. I feel that it is due to so many of the dogs being used to breed do nothing else but be in the show ring and sit in a run where directability is not needed nor to a degree desired. You used the word "versatility", I think this is what we may be loosing.

Mick.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

Aloof to handler. Aloof to me as a stranger would make me a little excited.

Mick.

LOL
The vision is enchanting......

[Butcher'sDog2]

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

You would probably disagree that trialing is a proper test and, if one stays at their home field, on home helpers and trials only once for their III, I would agree. However, if one trials at regional (depending on the region), national and world levels, I believe it is a fair test. And I wouldn't even say that the score necessarily matters; it is what the TEAM brings to the field in all 3 phases.

rottsnscotts, I'm always talking about a natural protector that needs to make his own decisions. These dogs have a more complex job than offensive use PSD. As such they are harder to demonstrate.

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

[b]There is absolutly no doubt a number of the dogs I see have been treated as such and act accordingly yet I still see a larger amount of such dogs now than I have in the past when the handling and training was much harder and more compulsive based than it is now days.

This is so true. If I had the understanding I now have, 17 years ago I would have produced better obedience dogs. And yet with all that I've learned and know some of these dogs today boggle my mind with their resistance. It's ironic to have this knowledge and not have anywhere to put it.

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by Butcher'sDog2

rottsnscotts, I'm always talking about a natural protector that needs to make his own decisions. These dogs have a more complex job than offensive use PSD.

It is my strongly held opinion that I do not EVER want my dogs making their own decisions. I do want instant and strong response to my decisions but do not want them to make their own.

Now, I again say it is my opinion and certainly allow each to have their own, and differing opinion but "free lancing" dogs generally make bad decisions and end up in lawsuits and BSL!

And I would beg to differ that PSD are "offensive use"; that is one use but certainly not the only...

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Butcher'sDog2

rottsnscotts, I'm always talking about a natural protector that needs to make his own decisions. These dogs have a more complex job than offensive use PSD. As such they are harder to demonstrate.This is so true. If I had the understanding I now have, 17 years ago I would have produced better obedience dogs. And yet with all that I've learned and know some of these dogs today boggle my mind with their resistance. It's ironic to have this knowledge and not have anywhere to put it.

Just curious...are there any obedience or working titles you've put on any rotts?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

It is my strongly held opinion that I do not EVER want my dogs making their own decisions. I do want instant and strong response to my decisions but do not want them to make their own.

.

your very right on this i believe the only time a dog should act on its own is if the situation would arise that you were physically unable to give a command because of a assault on you. then that desicion would be black and white desicion for the dog. any other thinking on the dogs part or making decisions would be a grey area for the dog. if a dog actually had the ability to rationally think situations through then they would be training us im sure LOL

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by lblax

if a dog actually had the ability to rationally think situations through then they would be training us im sure LOL

And you don't think they are????

[Butcher'sDog2]

Originally Posted by Skip

Just curious...are there any obedience or working titles you've put on any rotts?

To Skip and anyone else who feels resistance to what I'm talking about; the only knowledge I have of dogs is what I've learned from online dog forums, you can safely disregard anything I have to say as complete BS. You can also quote me on this whenever and as often as you feel like.

I'm interested in communicating with people who have the experience to know what I'm talking about as far as the subject at hand or have common sense. I like questions from people who don't understand but want to as they stimulate my mind to organize my thoughts and and put things into perspective. I can also respect that someone may have a different opinion. But I will not try to convince you otherwise.

[Mick Trainer]

I must also concur that I seek no decision making from the dog in regards when and where to work. The exact opposite is true for me. I control everything when it comes to this. Even as Iblax said when I have been takendown in an attack, I train the dog for such scenarios. I do not leave this to chance. I want the dog to behave in the way inwhich it was trained to do not what it's desire tells it it want to do. I have said this before and I always find it holds true no matter the time, "a natural protector is a natural disaster." Why if you have a true and very serious working dog would you not work it, control it, and teach it? As long as you know what you are doing the dog can do nothing but be benefited from this. There is no way a human body guard would ever rely on his genetics alone.

Mick.

[Gunsey'sMom]

I think that is a good mantra- (the natural protector is a natural disaster) I was hoping for clarification on that point, so thank you. That is what I have always thought as well- I mean that the dog is not supposed to be the one making the decision so to speak.

I was wondering if there was any such thing, since this thread is about this, as too much willingness or directability in a good working dog? And I will try to explain further. I guess I mean perhaps to say- you want the dog to have some spine and not be a bowl of jello, but at the same time its your duty to have control over and channel the dogs energy and actions even if it is not as willing or directable as another dog may be. So can a dog be too, I guess-pliable is the word? And would tha have any negative effect anywhere else for you guys who are involved on the loevels of these serious working dogs?

I hope my question makes enough sense.

[RottsNScotts]

Butcher's - earlier you referred to the livestock guardian breeds. As I consider those breeds and their natural, independent protection work, the ones I have experience with (quite a few herding locations do use them still) are pretty much specific to guarding against predatory animals, not humans, as far as actually "assaulting" an intruder. They will alarm bark and get between their stock and a stranger but none of them will actually grip, that I am aware of (I don't think their owners want the liability either). At the same time, they are all more than happy to go after an animal intruder.

It is also interesting to watch them when they have been brought in with their sheep when the sheep are going to be worked. The dogs that work the sheep well and are fair and quite, the guardian dog pretty much just lays down in the pen and snoozes. A hectic dog that is running sheep will have them on their feet barking! And what is really cool, the guardians KNOW even before the rodeo starts and will be up on the fence watching! Good thing they are trained not to intervene when the sheep are actually working or that could be a MESS!