Early indications of a good level of directability or willngness

[Butcher'sDog2]

frontier, congrats on your achievements.

To get the thread back on track, it is not about disputing whether willingness is a tangible temperament quality in a dog. It is about giving some examples of it in pups, young dogs and adults. Of course if you can't recognize it in a dog please don't bother posting in this thread, you may want to start a thread debating whether it exists or not..

[lblax]

[quote=RottsNScotts;779323]Sorry, would have to disagree, strongly, with you here! Having had 2 Rottie males that have excelled both in show and their respective working venue QUOTE]you might notice i said

vurtually impossible to have a dog that excells at both

this doesnt mean all.

and i do stand by this although i should have put in most owners

and the few that do are misunderstood by there owners

i truly believe the rott is one of the most mis understood dogs out there that are popular amoung the public. and as far as working goes your situation probably benefits the dogs you train immensly.i like to see everyone do something with there dog regardless of the breeding i do not know what venues you are working in but i bellieve in breed specific work to test the dogs for rotts there are herding/sch/ pp. and i particulary like to see them compete against other breeds not just against other rotts and while flyball /agility that sort of stuff is fun to do and fun to watch and takes loads of skill to do for both handler and dog and is a real acomplishment for both it doesnt test the breed for what they were meant to do. but to get a dog that everyone looks at in the show ring and they say WOW!!!! then take the same dog at a working trial and say WOW! are very few and far between and that just isnt rottweiler specific it goes for all the working breeds

[Mick Trainer]

Thinking about this topic I have found it hard to clearly define what is meant by "biddible" or "directable" but as often is the case the simplest difinition is often the best. What I mean by the term "directable" is simply that the dog seeks to be directed by the handler. It will easily and willingly offer up behavior to see what reaction it gets from the handler. It does not seek to resist the handler but looks at almost all times to look for a positive reaction from it's master but will quickly alter it's behavior when it does not come. When confronted with a situation it has not struck previous will throw many behaviors out there once again measuring responce. It is a dog that learn quickly as it is not stressed through the learning process. Little compulsion is needed to teach as the dog is atuned to the handlers responces yet the dog can be quite handler hard and take a compulsion, learn by it but show very little side effects from other than a alteration to the behavior the compulsion was given to effect.

To gain abetter understanding of this behavior we should look at where it has come from. Directability is not in any way a Rottweiler only behavior and it can be found present in all working based breeds that have been directed as part of the task they were bred to achieve. The Rottweiler, GSD, Dobermann etc have been bred to be directed by their master to go do this task and go do that task. Same as cattle and sheep dogs, retrieving animals. For all these style of tasks it is important that the dog be easy for the handler to direct to go do the task as required. This has meant that one of the characteristics that have been desired and thus bred for is this directability. High rank orientation works directly against this and as such became something not saught after in our breeds (until recently which is another discussion topic). A dog that is easy to lead, teach and control has been desired since our bred has begun. It is this that has created this directability. In recent times we have seen this characteristic being saught after less and less for many reasons. I think that this is a real shame and one of the contributing factors as too why we are having so many handler issues.

I hope that this clarifies what I define as "directability" a little. In the end I could write a huge amount and probably not define it correctly and acuratly enough. As so many topics we discuss here it is hard to give a clear picture with only the written word. Now if any of you want to make the trip to Melbourne Australia I can show it to you in about 10 minutes.

Mick.

[Butcher'sDog2]

I'd like to add that directability was not an essential quality for the original molossers and shepherd dogs, I'm talking about the dogs that work independently guarding, not herding, livestock. Dogs such as Pyrenees, Akbash etc. The Rottweiler is a molosser descendant from these dogs, yet it is probably the only molosser to possess the power and discrimination of the breed along with a good degree of directability. That is what makes the Rottweiler unique IMO. Of course this kind of dog is exceptional and hard to find. I read that Bouviers can also be like this.

Now back to the question, can someone tell of early indications of willingness in a puppy?

[hcelsa]

Here's a good article on this particular subject...it's not at all Rottweiler specific, but the author does a nice job of talking about prey drive vs. bidabbility (desire to please).
http://www.darnfar.com/Dog%20Trainin...ight_breed.htm

As far as the original post goes, I'd suggest looking for a puppy that is focused on what people are doing rather than off on it's own playing independently. For what I like to do with my dogs I want a pup that is offering eye contact at 4 weeks or so...one that follows me around, but is also quite willing to leave me to retrieve something (and I don't mind if they don't bring it right back, though most of my puppies do). I like a pup that leaves it's littermates/mother to greet a person who enters the area, and one who works to engage people in play (by bringing a toy, hanging off pantlegs, biting shoes/socks, leaping/jumping on the person, barking etc). I prefer a pup that by 7-8 weeks is confidentally moving sheep around by his/herself, and is willing to confidentally approach livestock that aren't moving and get them moving. I like a pup that wants to bring ME the livestock, and is confident and outgoing in many situations (my puppies get TONS of socialization before they leave here). As far as evaluating puppy temperaments beyond my observations I really like combining the Volhard PAT test with this puppy test...
http://www.malinut.com/ref/write/paws/

And I agree with RottsNScotts (who is quite qualified to speak on the subject of dogs excelling in conformation and work...). There are a whole lot of dogs out there that COULD work if given the opportunity (yes, it's also likely that there are plenty that don't feel like working, I just haven't seen as many of that extreme). For example: I see many "pet" dogs of many different breeds that have aptitude for herding, but their owners aren't interested in working with them. They've got all kinds of other priorities in their lives, so the dog never gets a chance to reach his/her potential (why they go out and buy a herding or working breed and then expect the dog to fit into their livestyle beats me!).

[RottsNScotts]

What I look for and develop in a pup is their desire to interact with me from the beginning. Sometimes it even shows up as naughtiness! (and generally that means I have not been stimulating their good behavior enough! LOL) My pups soon learn that to get what they want, they give me what I want; I generally ignore non-hazardous bad behavior in a pup/youngster. That helps them learn that bad behavior doesn't get them anything so what is the use?

That said, my pups/youngsters are kept very, very busy experiencing life and trying everything. They go everywhere with me, meet everyone (people), dabble in tracking, herding, tug work, you name it; in effect, I am not concerned about "training" at this stage but teaching them how to learn and that nothing I ask them to do will ever hurt them.

As they grow, we work on plain manners - like walking on a leash (vs actual "heeling") - and our general routines. I don't actually start formal "training" until they are somewhere between 12 and 18 months of age; they "tell" me when they are ready as each is an individual. When formal "training" work starts, then the work must be correct so we keep it short but very intense.

And I have learned, to a very small degree, which lines don't seem to produce that biddability I look for or high work ethic and desire to please.

I have always said that a dog with high desire to please will take you WAY further than one that may have more talent but is selfish.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by hcelsa

(why they go out and buy a herding or working breed and then expect the dog to fit into their livestyle beats me!).

thats why we have the behavior forum and you see the threads that arise

[RottsNScotts]

Looks like we are all typing at the same time!

Butcher's - I would theorize that there was a rather marked separation between the "guarding" molosser types and the Rottweiler pretty early on. One of the first things noted in the history of our Rotties' development as a breed is how they were used as "herders/drivers" of cattle. You will not see this characteristic in guardian breeds. So should Rotties have stayed in the Herding Group? Maybe...the separation of herding and working breeds is probably the muddiest of all the group divisions; probably because as the breeds' traditional jobs were reduced or vanished altogether, our flexible dogs (and owner/trainers!) found new jobs!

I am not sure what you are saying when you say "Of course this kind of dog is exceptional and hard to find". Do you mean in other breeds or in the Rottie? In either case, I wouldn't agree. I see standouts in ability and directability all over the place. (Must be the people HCElsa and I run with and around!)

[RottsNScotts]

lblax - it wasn't actually a question, but the two dogs I refer to were a Group placing/multiple V-1 Select/BOB/2 x Sch National Ch/UDT (UD with 4 first placements at all breed shows)/100 point FH/IFR high protection, 4th and 5th overall and a Top 5 conformation/BIS (first HC of any breed to win one!)/BISS/Select/multiple V-1/BST/Herding Ch/Sch II with 2 Top Ten tracking/CI/CDX/as many Group 1's as High in Trials in herding the same year.

My dynamic duo I have now are working in conformation, herding, obedience, tracking and carting. We were doing Sch but our helper is not in the area right now...

And those were my 2 Rotties! My two GSD's were as accomplished in work; just didn't show them, for obvious reasons!

Got the first Rottie at 18 months of age; second one at 14 weeks. My GSD police dog was almost 3 years of age and a Sch II when he came; my second was also about 3 years...

[Mick Trainer]

As for what I look for in regards directability like others have said I look like a dog that seeks my attention straight off (seperated from the litter), is still independant enough to walk off but can be coxed back very easily. The pup will easily accept being handled and remains attentive durin. Further I like a pup that will throw behavior at you quickly. I may encourage jumping up and then stop it, I want to see the pup offer something else fast. What it is doing isn't working, try something else. I would also add that the pup must have good nerve. The character I consider the most important to get directability.

Mick.

[Mick Trainer]

I see standouts in ability and directability all over the place. (Must be the people HCElsa and I run with and around!) I would say that it must be the circles you frequent to some proportion as I don't see many Rottweilers I would put into this catagory. Whilst there clearly are dogs around with solid directability a large number of the dogs I see now days (both well and BYB bred) carry high social dominance and are often down right aloof. Few for me have the high level of directability I would seek.

Mick.

P.S. I am having trouble with email for some reason, I tried to reply to both, will try again soon.

[Butcher'sDog2]

hcelsa, thanks, I will look over those write ups carefully.

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

Butcher's - I would theorize that there was a rather marked separation between the "guarding" molosser types and the Rottweiler pretty early on. One of the first things noted in the history of our Rotties' development as a breed is how they were used as "herders/drivers" of cattle. You will not see this characteristic in guardian breeds. So should Rotties have stayed in the Herding Group? Maybe...the separation of herding and working breeds is probably the muddiest of all the group divisions; probably because as the breeds' traditional jobs were reduced or vanished altogether, our flexible dogs (and owner/trainers!) found new jobs!

I guess it depends on how you perceive the breed. From my very first exposure to rotts I thought of them as guard dogs and continue to do so. If I think of any of the different styles of herding I think of GSD or Collies or Aussies, anything but a rott. I just don't equate that size head and that powerful grip with nipping sheep. The truth is that I didn't look much into the history of the breed but rather accepted it as I first saw it in 1990. Since then I've seen the rott go in both directions, slimmer thinner muzzled dogs who would better lend themselves to a full days work running in the field and pumpkin headed molosser throw backs.

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

I am not sure what you are saying when you say "Of course this kind of dog is exceptional and hard to find". Do you mean in other breeds or in the Rottie? In either case, I wouldn't agree. I see standouts in ability and directability all over the place. (Must be the people HCElsa and I run with and around!)

I mean that the qualities I'm looking for, a natural protector and directable are hard to find in a rott because I'm looking for it in rotts. The problem is that unlike other disciplines like tracking, sport protection, carting, herding etc. real protection work is very difficult to demonstrate and quantify. It's just not something that would be immediately apparent even if the dog was an exceptional dog. It has to do with a sense of responsibility combined with other temperament traits that are only awakened in situations where the dog feels it's the right time. This right time is difficult to fake.

[RottsNScotts]

Is that aloof to you as a "stranger" or aloof to its handler/owner?

[Butcher'sDog2]

You're asking Mick but I know he meant aloof to the handler. The 4 month old pup I have now is that way. Very good alertness and desire to engage in situations, I can see future aggression in him, but very little willingness and that aloofness. The aloofness comes about the moment you show the dog that sometimes he has to do what you say whether he likes it or not. There's no way of not instilling handler aloofness in this kind of dog unless you live on a farm and it's an outdoor dog, also some freaky people in the city let their dogs do whatever they want to.. that will do it too.

[Mick Trainer]

Aloof to handler. Aloof to me as a stranger would make me a little excited.

Mick.