Working (Schutzhund) lines..

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Skip

Mick-

How much credence do you give to trial scores? Do you take into consideration how many trials, age of the dog, and how high the average scores were? I saw you listed some of your requirements, so I guess what I'm asking is how do you grade an individual dog's serious working ability as far as trials?

i know your asking mick this question,but i judges dogs by competant working people that have seen them and there opinions of them the number of trials and the dogs actual scores really dont mean a thing because as we all know dogs that work on prey only can score consistantly high scores in trials but as we all know a dog that works in prey only isnt a balanced dog and if trial scores and titles were the only thing to consider or even had much weight behind them then ever litter would be full of good working pups. a good example is the usa world team in usa mike diehls is on the team and out of the whole bunch of dogs that are on the team (all high scorers) mikes dog is the real deal. so trial scores itself dont mean a whole lot to many variables between helpers and conditions. but what you see a dog do in a trial tells the tale and the best working dog of the trial could end up the lowest scoring dog.

[groupieindenial]

Are we not talking about shutzhund? And if your saying that a dog with high prey is going to get better scores than a "serious working dog". Then give me that prey mongrel!! I want on the podium thanks!!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

Are we not talking about shutzhund? And if your saying that a dog with high prey is going to get better scores than a "serious working dog". Then give me that prey mongrel!! I want on the podium thanks!!

But we're talking about "serious" schutzhund, and I understand larry's point that the top of the podium might or might not be a serious dog.

[groupieindenial]

This is why I don't like these types of threads. I applaud Mick for attempting to respond with something non-subjective. However, one's interpretation of an "ideal" schutzhund dog varies between even the top competitors. Too many variables from genetics, to poor handlers. There are so so dogs that can make it to the top, just as there are even more great dogs ruined by bad training. Quantitative proof (scores) mean jack, and qualitative is subject to interpretation.

And until you actually SEE that prospect, that golden dog, you don't really know what magnificent blend of characteristics it takes to make that great SCH dog, until you work it, and work it well.

So we talk about "serious" schutzhund. You mean the type of dog that can make it on top no matter what is thrown at them, regardless of the choreagraphed sequences practiced. You can go through every possible scenario, and at a world level event, they can throw something at your dog it's never seen before. And THIS is the dog that doesn't blink and eye, that isn't phased one bit. YEah, these are far and few between with dogs in general. They are extremely rare, and some would say no longer existant in the Rottweilers. I will take that prey mongrel with a solid even temperament as long as he has a super high work ethic if I want to be competitive. This is a "sport", its all about precision.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

This is why I don't like these types of threads. I applaud Mick for attempting to respond with something non-subjective. However, one's interpretation of an "ideal" schutzhund dog varies between even the top competitors. Too many variables from genetics, to poor handlers. There are so so dogs that can make it to the top, just as there are even more great dogs ruined by bad training. Quantitative proof (scores) mean jack, and qualitative is subject to interpretation.

And until you actually SEE that prospect, that golden dog, you don't really know what magnificent blend of characteristics it takes to make that great SCH dog, until you work it, and work it well.

So we talk about "serious" schutzhund. You mean the type of dog that can make it on top no matter what is thrown at them, regardless of the choreagraphed sequences practiced. You can go through every possible scenario, and at a world level event, they can throw something at your dog it's never seen before. And THIS is the dog that doesn't blink and eye, that isn't phased one bit. YEah, these are far and few between with dogs in general. They are extremely rare, and some would say no longer existant in the Rottweilers. I will take that prey mongrel with a solid even temperament as long as he has a super high work ethic if I want to be competitive. This is a "sport", its all about precision.

I probably should not have isolated the term "serious" just for Schutzhund at the start of this thread. I just wanted to specify a Schutzhund TYPE of work as opposed to what others would consider as work. The thread was started to get some views on "serious" working dogs, not necessarily high-scoring competitive schutzhund dogs.

[groupieindenial]

Originally Posted by Skip

not necessarily high-scoring competitive schutzhund dogs.

Isn't this an oxymoron? Isn't that what schutzhund is about? Why would anyone want to work a dog in the sport with no aspirations of doing well? Its kind of like going to a top university with no intent of graduating. Whats the point? This is why there were only 3 dogs entered in the Rottie championship. Yeah, 3 dogs the last I heard

[lblax]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

Are we not talking about shutzhund? And if your saying that a dog with high prey is going to get better scores than a "serious working dog". Then give me that prey mongrel!! I want on the podium thanks!!

no i didnt say that the prey monster will get higher sqores than the serious working dog what i said was we all know that some dogs that work only in prey do well the sport so the scores really dont tell the tell you can have a serious working dog with a lesser degree of handler that doesnt score as high so when you watch the dog you can see although he might as not scored as high he is still the better dog

[groupieindenial]

Originally Posted by Skip

not have isolated the term "serious" just for Schutzhund ...... I just wanted to specify a Schutzhund TYPE of work ......get some views on "serious" working dogs, not necessarily high-scoring competitive schutzhund dogs.

NOt schutzhund, but schutzhund TYPE of work Skip, it sounds like your skirting around the idea of a PP dog, if you don't care about scores, but you want a serious dog to do that type of work. So what exactly is it that your looking for?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

Isn't this an oxymoron? Isn't that what schutzhund is about? Why would anyone want to work a dog in the sport with no aspirations of doing well? Its kind of like going to a top university with no intent of graduating. Whats the point? This is why there were only 3 dogs entered in the Rottie championship. Yeah, 3 dogs the last I heard

true schutzhund is not here anymore people have made it into a obediance routine nothing more they took the escape fromthe blind away because the high scoring show/work dogs couldnt stand the pressure now they speak of removing the courage test once again pressure from show/work people because there dogs cant take the pressure they took the gunshots off the bh routine once again so the show/work breeders younger dogs could have the posibilliti of making it to a sch. one. like ive said in another thread i know a black lab a ttrainer uses as his demo dog that can probably score a high point total on the sch 3 routine than 90% of all the schutzhund dogs ive seen as long as there is no real pressure from a helper . theve already taken two of the pressure agents out of the sport and if they change the courage test to a call off instead of bite e3veryone in the world will think they have the ultimate working line. so the point is to stay true to the original meaning and roots of schutzhund as a test of courage and hardness and let your dog give till it bleeds to get you there. at this point in time with the breedings you see advertized and what rottie breeders think are working breders im surprized that there are 3 dogs qualified to even enter the championship..as mick stated eventually the rott wwill end up with the gsd with 2 distint differant breeds within one a show breed and a work breed to think that dogs can be bred and bred and bred to to both well is absurd because the test for the dogs gets easier and easier each year.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

NOt schutzhund, but schutzhund TYPE of work Skip, it sounds like your skirting around the idea of a PP dog, if you don't care about scores, but you want a serious dog to do that type of work. So what exactly is it that your looking for?

a serious working dog in the right hands will outshine the typical so called working dog. no one will ever get you to understand the differance if we typed till we are blue in the face so here is my suggestion. go to a trial where mike diehl is competing and when you see his dog work you will instantly understand what we mean the dog is a real dog he is a hard dog he is what a working dog should be and he is also in the right hands. i assume your in a club of some type so if you ever have johannas grewe as a judge he will explain exactly what should be and how a dog should be and he pulls no punches he can look any one in they eye and say you have a weak dog or as he puts it VEEK.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

NOt schutzhund, but schutzhund TYPE of work Skip, it sounds like your skirting around the idea of a PP dog, if you don't care about scores, but you want a serious dog to do that type of work. So what exactly is it that your looking for?

I'm not skirting a damn thing. I've seen (what I would consider) a few very serious dogs in schutzhund. They might not have been the top scoring dog, but I liked what I saw. I've seen some dogs that score high, but if some real pressure was put on the dog, all you would see is tail or stump heading for the truck. No offense, but I think Mick and Larry are explaining it better than I am. I'm not talking PP.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Skip

I'm not skirting a damn thing. I've seen (what I would consider) a few very serious dogs in schutzhund. They might not have been the top scoring dog, but I liked what I saw. I've seen some dogs that score high, but if some real pressure was put on the dog, all you would see is tail or stump heading for the truck. .

i personally wasnt there but story has it that a very well known boxer who is also a life member of schutzhund usa bought a very highscoring dog for around 40,000 in the champion ships that year his dog was literly ran off the field by a helper comepletly out of the stadium.a top notch top scorer who had been bred to pass along his genes

[Mick Trainer]

How much credence do you give to trial scores? Do you take into consideration how many trials, age of the dog, and how high the average scores were? I saw you listed some of your requirements, so I guess what I'm asking is how do you grade an individual dog's serious working ability as far as trials? As far as scores and trials etc Larry has basically said what I would be wanting to write in that scores etc mean precisely zero for me in regards finding a serious dog. I will however take a quick look at where and at what level a dog has been trialled but overall such things mean nothing to me as I do not know enough about who was helping/judging etc, do they know what they are looking for? I could go on and on but in the end SchH is a routine based exercise and as such can be taught in a way to get a dog through that would not have been possable some time ago. Further as someone else said it is now about precision in the routine and no longer a test so is not reflective of temperament. To know if a dog is seroous now days I need to see ir, work it, or have someone who I trust do the same. Anything else is just guessing.

I will take that prey mongrel with a solid even temperament as long as he has a super high work ethic if I want to be competitive. This is a "sport", its all about precision. And this is why SchH is no longer useful as a temperament test for serious dogs as it has become a scoring sport and that prey can be used to get a dog through who has weak nerves by conditioning he dog that if it handles ever increasing levels of stress it gets top play it's game. Why would anyone want to work a dog in the sport with no aspirations of doing well? If in real terms you wish to compete at the highest level of a sport brought about for the GSD then you would be better getting a GSD and not competeing with a Rottweiler because no Rottweiler will compete on this platform on truly the highest level. By competeing with a Rottweiler you have automatically made a decision not to compete at the highest level of such a sport. For the record however no one is saying that a serious dog cannot do well and I would even argue that if you are at the worlds etc then you really need a reasonably serious type of dog just that a dog need not be serious to get a SchH111 etc with a high score in most locations, trials etc and that this in turn limits the use of SchH in any way as a temperament test. Vaslty more is seen about a dog now days when the sleeve is thrown away.

I've seen (what I would consider) a few very serious dogs in schutzhund. They might not have been the top scoring dog, but I liked what I saw. And this the reality of this whole thing, it is more important to satisfy what you seek in a dog than it is to score high etc. At the end of the day you still have to live with a dog vaslty more than you compete with a dog and any dog for me should be a type that you seek to live with miles before it is about competeing and when this is no longer the case then your interest in the sport, for me, has gone too far and if you like a serious dog then that is what you should seek and let the sport comes second. In all liklyhood when you first get a serious dog you will not score highly with it as your handling skills, the skills of your helper struggle to catch up but if you persist then in the end you should score higher with such a dog but this should not be the main reson for having such a dog. Your desire to have such a dog for it's temperament should be a far higher level of priority then whether or not you get a score with the dog. Even if I never trained such a dog for sport, pp etc I would still seek to own such a dog as it suits me as an owner. Everything else is a bonus.

Of the topic a little I know is sport circles PP training has a poor rep and SchH people often look down on it as their poor second cousin but this is something I cannot agree with and would be far more willing to take the fact that a dog is a successful PP dog as a temperament test than I would a sport dog. A PP dog must be trained to avoid all routines as such things do not exist in the real world (and of course a higher level of pressure) and as such this means that you cannot condition a dog to get past this like you can a sport dog. Just something to think about.

well known boxer who is also a life member of schutzhund usa bought a very highscoring dog for around 40,000 in the champion ships that year his dog was literly ran off the field by a helper comepletly out of the stadium Jeez louise, Larry give this guy a call and tell him for $40,000each I have got 10 dogs all capable of doing this.

I should have also mentioned in my above reply Onex and Quantus vom Hause Anin. I will probably add a few names as we go.

Mick.

[lblax]

I've seen (what I would consider) a few very serious dogs in schutzhund. They might not have been the top scoring dog, but I liked what I saw.

i agree with everthing you said mick and the bottom line is satisfaction i look at my pup some days and think wow other days i look and i think lol what a duffuss and yet another day i look at him and think holy crap am i gonna be able to handle him. but what i know everytime i leave training and at the end of the day im happy . twio years ago at our club trial a 76 year old man brought his 9 year old sch2 dog he had tried to get the 3 for several years but the dog had outing problems on the courage test the dog acted like he was 4 or 5 he gothrough the tracking with a 74 the dog pushed him through the obediance to the point of almost being out of control a score of 79 then came the protection a flawless routine up til the courage test he sent the dog for the bite the dog never collected himself or broke stride he hit the helper like a frieght train actually both the helpers feet were off the ground for about 6 feet they looked like a train wreck as dog and helper got to there feet and he wouldnt outthe judge actually gave him 5 tries to get the dog to out he walked off the field to the 1st standing ovation i have ever seen in a club trial as he passed us he said i love this old son of a b----. and thats what its all about

[IJF1]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

[b]
I should have also mentioned in my above reply Onex and Quantus vom Hause Anin. I will probably add a few names as we go.

Mick.

Good call on those two (also the T litter, Troll, Tinka & Ticia)

Also I'll add Barry vom Bakkes and Fjordbakkens Andy.