Working (Schutzhund) lines..

[toobad]

There are still plenty of dogs here with what it takes to be good working dogs. The Vom Schloss Hexental dogs that are here produce some pretty good prospects. I know of 18 dogs bred from these lines and have no home to speak of. Their owner was killed in a car crash a couple of months ago and the wife has no clue on what to do with the dogs. I was going to take a son but the dogs are just way to hard for me. I need something that can more of a pet than a kennel dog since there is no club right around me to work him. The price was far less than some are getting for pet quality dogs but I just don't think I can handle him and I am being honest with myself.

I'm kinda strange when it came to picking my pups. I looked for dogs bred from working lines, dogs with ZTP, Gekort, and schutzhund / IPO titles. My pups have a lot of working dogs and a ton of working bitches in their pedigree. Not so much sires and dams but grand fathers and grand mothers with titles. I don't believe my dogs are too watered down to work them if I had a place to do so. I think the dogs with Noris, Balou, Irk and Chris, flash, etc still have some of what it takes bred into them. Just my opinion

[IJF1]

In terms of lines, I would look back to dogs like Aki von der Peeler Hutte, Arri vom Hertener Wappen, Ken vom Sternbogen, Noris vom Gruntenblick..

In terms of kennels, I would recommend Schwaiger Wappen, Herrenholz, Turnleberg, Wartturm, Hause Anin, Ter Waele and vom Schloss Hexental.

[EliDogInTraining]

Originally Posted by toobad

The Vom Schloss Hexental dogs that are here produce some pretty good prospects.

And you came to this conclusion how?

What and where exactly are these dogs?...Where are these dogs and offspring titling?

[Scottyrm3s]

Vom Hause Neubrung is one side of Jakes pedigree Enzian being the other and they have had many european working champions. His Uncle is Unkas Vom Hause Neubrand . They seem to have a great history of producing working dogs.

[IJF1]

Originally Posted by Scottyrm3s

Vom Hause Neubrung is one side of Jakes pedigree Enzian being the other and they have had many european working champions. His Uncle is Unkas Vom Hause Neubrand . They seem to have a great history of producing working dogs.

Vom Hause Neubrand is a large kennel at the absolute top of their game. They have produced some nice working dogs in the last few years (including Unkas and Valentino).

If you want a good looking dog that can work, then Oliver Neubrand is your man, but IMO (and I have an Unkas daughter) they do not use the strongest working lines.

[Skip]

I appreciate the responses. All info is appreciated. I will be researching for at least another 6 months or so. Most of the kennels named have a lot of good dogs, but if I want a REAL serious candidate, I realize I MIGHT need to look past all the 'name' kennels....It seems like more and more of them are predominantly breeding for stronger conformation as opposed to the work.

[s1960]

Hey Skip, If possible post what you can as you do your research and what you find. I'd appreciate it for future reference. Thanks, Steve

[jazzking1971]

When I researched last year....

vom Schwaiger Wappen
Ter Waele
vom Wachberg
vom Herrenholz
vom Cäsarenkamp
vom Türnleberg

[Skip]

Originally Posted by toobad

There are still plenty of dogs here with what it takes to be good working dogs. The Vom Schloss Hexental dogs that are here produce some pretty good prospects. I know of 18 dogs bred from these lines and have no home to speak of. Their owner was killed in a car crash a couple of months ago and the wife has no clue on what to do with the dogs. I was going to take a son but the dogs are just way to hard for me. I need something that can more of a pet than a kennel dog since there is no club right around me to work him. The price was far less than some are getting for pet quality dogs but I just don't think I can handle him and I am being honest with myself.

I'm kinda strange when it came to picking my pups. I looked for dogs bred from working lines, dogs with ZTP, Gekort, and schutzhund / IPO titles. My pups have a lot of working dogs and a ton of working bitches in their pedigree. Not so much sires and dams but grand fathers and grand mothers with titles. I don't believe my dogs are too watered down to work them if I had a place to do so. I think the dogs with Noris, Balou, Irk and Chris, flash, etc still have some of what it takes bred into them. Just my opinion

Why look for dogs from working lines, yet never work them? I think this is also ANOTHER part of the 'watering down' of the breed. If someone is LUCKY enough to have picked a dog that COULD be a REALLY good working dog (along with great conformation and health clearances), but never works them, then these dogs never attain the recognition, never qualify to breed, and the gene pool MIGHT have lost a great contributor. The proof is in actually doing the work with the dog.

[Butcher'sDog2]

LOL I'd stay away from schwaiger wappen. I happened to have a puppy out of Amigo and Bonna 1.5 years old now, weak nerved and less than zero willingness, and this is after talking to Claudia a few times thinking we have a good line of communication on what I want (her English is excellent BTW). Any breeding can produce a poor specimen but she insisted that the pup was perfect. This to me shows utter ignorance, I was able to identify this in a a week once I got him. show dogs! As most of what those big name kennels in Germany are producing. You wouldn't believe it with all those titles.. Forgive me for putting my opinion before the almighty schwaiger wappen LOL. Best advice you'll ever get, NEVER buy a dog sight unseen.

[Zephir]

Originally Posted by Butcher'sDog2

LOL I'd stay away from schwaiger wappen. I happened to have a puppy out of Amigo and Bonna 1.5 years old now, weak nerved and less than zero willingness, and this is after talking to Claudia a few times thinking we have a good line of communication on what I want (her English is excellent BTW). Any breeding can produce a poor specimen but she insisted that the pup was perfect. This to me shows utter ignorance, I was able to identify this in a a week once I got him. show dogs! As most of what those big name kennels in Germany are producing. You wouldn't believe it with all those titles.. Forgive me for putting my opinion before the almighty schwaiger wappen LOL. Best advice you'll ever get, NEVER buy a dog sight unseen.

I agree with not buying a dog sight unseen (and puppies can be a crap shoot), but I'm just curious why you did not send the dog back after having him one week and you noticed there was a problem??? I also agree any top working breeding can produce crap...not all the offspring will/ can be top competitors...

[sch1rot]

Did you buy the Amigo x Bonna pup for work? I would not be touching anything out of Mambo if I was looking for work, especially something more serious. Certainly each breeding brings something different. I am just speaking in general terms.

There are some dogs out there I think that do bring more to the table. However, as someone I think stated, even in Germany they are looking for a middle ground. Hence look to the breeding Amigo has gotten over Zico!

[Mick Trainer]

Firstly allow me to apologies for this rely taking so long to get here but a few things have come up and I wanted a bit of time to sit down and write something decent not a five line reply.

When writing such a reply as this one of the hardest parts is knowing where to start and where to end as discussions regarding lines can go on and on and on for days if time allows, but I suppose really I should start by quickly defining what I believe a serious working dog to be. For me such a dog must posses real civility when required, it is a dog that targets the man and not the equipment and will bite just as serious (and in all likelihood even more seriously) when there is no equipment present. It need not be overly sharp and can even be outwardly social but can easily posses a degree of sharpness giving the dog a very real territorial aggression. It is a dog that very rarely will need to be taught the mechanics of biting but more only when and where it is allowed to do so and further when such a dog is working it is truly engaging in a fight and is doing so with the sole objective of taken the opponent out as quickly as possible.

Now to lines, like I said above it is hard to know where to start and end when it comes to this sort of thing but I do find in short that like many others have said there are a few true pillars of the working Rottweiler that I think have given us the vast majority of the still capable working present now days in out breed. Dogs like Ives Eulenspiegel clearly have had a huge effect on all aspects of the Rottweiler breed and an incredibly strong one in the working arena with one of his son’s in Dingo vom Schwaiger Wappen being probably the most influential and consistent producer of working capable Rottweiler. Other dogs such as Aki von der Peeler Hutte and Arri von der Hembachbrucke, Amigo vom Kressbach, Nero vom Schloss Riethiem (all Ives sons), Falko von der Tente, Mirko Vom Steinkopf, I think someone mentioned Harkon vom Leinetal who certain fits this company, as well as many dogs from the Austrian Military Kennels (who Dingo goes back to on his Dam’s side and for me one of the reasons why Dingo is the best producing of working dogs out of Ives) have had a clear influence upon the working strength of our breed.

Now I can hear many of you saying “these are really old dogs” and “Many shows dogs go back to these dogs” which is all true and this is why I only name a few dogs, why I only spend one paragraph on the older dogs and also why this discussion can get difficult. It is true that for a time the working Rott and Show Rott were one in the same (though I no longer believe this to be truly possible) so many of the same dogs appear both in show and working pedigrees however where they differ is when people have started to concentrate on one thing over another (with the vast majority breeding for confirmation showing) and thus as we have evolved, people due to wanted to achieve in one field or another have purposely decided to breed from dogs that have had and produced the qualities they have deemed appropriate for what they are looking to achieve. To this end we find that whilst working and show people may have bred from similar lined dogs one has chosen a dog from that line that satisfies what they require from a working stand point and some from a show, thus they have bred very different dogs.

So what do I like now days? Well in short many of the dogs I seek go strongly back to the dogs I spoke about above but along stronger working than show lines. Dogs like Kanto vom Nienburger Land who goes back strongly to Aki and to a lesser extent Dingo. Kairo von Burg Dinklage again going back to Aki and Dingo on the Dam’s Side but with more of an outcross through Otto certainly seems to have the goods from all reports and should mate nicely to many of the more well known lines. Also dogs like Carlo vom Hamburger Michel certainly brings some power to the table as does Carlo von der Thalheimer. Similarly dogs going back to Kai vom Wildberger Schloss. One of these in Morro vom Kiefernweg who for me was massively under used in the US. A recent dog that seems to have produced some power and a fair degree of sharpness is Jackomo von der Bleichstrasse of course going back to a dog it is remise of me not to mention in Noris vom Grutenblick (and of course Bea) who is sired by the great Falco who is well known. The G litter through Graf vom Grutenblick has had the biggest influence on my own matings (just a quick side line). Jackomo has produced many well know workings dogs and for me the best being Vico von der Flugschneise (I know many will disagree but he is my pick). Ter Waele Posse certainly seems to have produced some strong dogs and been used by some working dog breeders though I have worked nothing out of him myself so cannot say for sure but he goes directly back to the Austrian Military dogs so believing he posses power is not a huge stretch. Many of the von Kaisersteinbruch show great power and certainly seem like dogs people should seek if looking for real power within their lines.

I have tried to stay away from mentioning too many kennels for many reasons but there is no doubt that as many others have mentioned there are many successful working dog kennels but even in these there are fewer and fewer seeking to breed truly serious working dogs. But even the most successful kennel with the best name (there are many more serious working kennels who do not promote themselves much) only some of their dogs work many more will not. In the end I have named but a few dogs and I will have forgotten to mention a great many more but in the end in the world in which we live to find truly great working Rottweilers is very hard and will often require people to look outside of the normal and most well used dogs as most well used dogs are not well used for working ability. I have also of course emitted many others people may view as working dogs that I see very little real power from. Further people seeking a serious working dog may need to find people of similar mind set who have worked the dogs to truly get an idea as to their worth in this regard as most working dog people are happy with a dog only capable of sport/routine prey orientated training and thus may give an opinion contrary to what such a person is truly seeking.

I hope that this has been informative and that it gives a very brief look into working lined dogs. I truly believe that in the end we will have, similar to the GSD, two distinct lines of Rottweilers, the working and the show and they will be varied in both temperament and confirmation and what works for one often works against the other.

Mick.

[Sharon Marples]

Well stated and very informative Mick. You always provide full information and backup for your statements. It's a real learning experience, especially for someone like me, who does not delve into the hard-core working lines very much. Thanks!

[Skip]

Mick-

How much credence do you give to trial scores? Do you take into consideration how many trials, age of the dog, and how high the average scores were? I saw you listed some of your requirements, so I guess what I'm asking is how do you grade an individual dog's serious working ability as far as trials?