Working (Schutzhund) lines..

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by brodster

ButchersDog2, I think that Mick and Oblex are going to preffer their dogs to wait for a command where as you and I prefer a dog that is going to react reasonably and think for itself before a situation can escalte into harm or a fight. I call that a true perrsonal protection dog not a personal direction dog.

I suppose you could ay that or maybe another way "safe and unsafe".

Mick.

[brodster]

I'm not at all saying that a dog in sch that IS capable of doing real work to not do it. I just dont see how a muzzle increases the ability for a dog to score well in trial when it is focused only on a sleeve. Like I have posted before on this forum I will be trialing my male in sch, ring, and dont really care about a high score but more for sport and competition. He will also be worked for real when he is old enough and if he has the goods for it. I see sch and ring training as the development for real work if the dog is capable and has the drives to do it. After he is 4, I wont trial him ever again, only real deal training.

The point is that most sch dogs don't and can't do real work. A top rott competetitor once told a magazine writer that if someone broke into his house, he would carry his dog out the back door because he is a sport dog. Hence my point that a high scoring dog is not necessarily a good protection or serious working dog (poor guy).

If someone approaches my child on my private property I expect my dog to show aggression (similar to a B&H) and send the intruder packing. If the intruder doesn't leave with the first sign of aggression (no bite would happen in this case), I want the dog to escalate things to the next level. If it's a choice between a law suit, and my daughter going missing, raped, and or murdered, I'll take a law suit and criticism about a dog that is out of control every time thanks.

I think that sometimes people get so analitical about the safety and control of a pp dog that they forget that no animal is 100% controlable. No one on this forum can guarentee 100% control over thier dog in every scenario let alone basic ones. They are free thinking beings and react differently every time based on a number of different factors. The bottom line is that the dog knows its job period. If it is to protect then it does that specific to the handlers desires and to the best of the dogs abilities. Eventually, as you pointed Mick, there will be let downs and slip ups in the dogs behaviour. Therefore, IMHO I conclude that letting a dog make decisions in an environment where it may need to is fine if the end result is the handlers desire. In my case it's protection of property (my house and vehicle) and persons (myself, wife, and daughter). The more you train for this, the more likely the dog will responde when, God forbid, a real situation rises. 100% gaurentee is not possible, but the more the dog is trained the more chance you have of the desired result.

[brodster]

LOL Mick!

Safe and unsafe You do make me laugh bud. You're a witty guy.

My dogs have never bitten a person in 15 years. I thank God I haven't had to use them for the real thing too. The closest being a B&H with two twenty something thieves attempting to heist my ol mans boat motor out of the drive way. But if what I think someone is doing is not cool and my dog respondes accordingly, I'll take your unsafe comment as a compliment to my families safety.

[Mick Trainer]

If it's a choice between a law suit, and my daughter going missing, raped, and or murdered, I'll take a law suit and criticism about a dog that is out of control every time thanks. No one is saying that any of us want a dog to sit there whilst the children is taken away etc. No one would be able to pick one of my kids up and make an escape with my dog there. I wouldn't want as an aggressive responce as a H&B level of aggression but this isn't really the point the pint is if this is the level of aggression you want why would you not train for it as assposed to leaving it up to the dog to decide? If you leave it to the dog it is far more likely to get it wrong than if you train the scenario you want. You can have the dog as aggressive or as passive as you want if it is capable of it but train it for it so it is more predictable rather than assuming it will get it right.

I think that sometimes people get so analitical about the safety and control of a pp dog that they forget that no animal is 100% controlable......The more you train for this, the more likely the dog will responde when, God forbid, a real situation rises. 100% gaurentee is not possible, but the more the dog is trained the more chance you have of the desired resultNo one is saying that you can get 100% safety with any dog and all can make a mistake but does anyone not believe a trained responce is not more predictable and thus safer than a non trained one? If you agree that "The more you train for this, the more likely the dog will responde when" why not also train what you do not want? If you beleive training a scenario you do want will make it more likely why would training what you don't want also not yeild better and thus more pedictable responces thus giving the dog a greater level of sefety?

Mick.

[Mick Trainer]

But if what I think someone is doing is not cool and my dog respondes accordingly, I'll take your unsafe comment as a compliment to my families safety. And when it falls outside of "appropriate" then what? How do you regard it then? I have no problem with a dog defending owner, property etc, far from it, I just want to "know" what it will do instead of "believe" based in it's ideals of what is appropriate.

Mick.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by brodster

..If it's a choice between a law suit, and my daughter going missing, raped, and or murdered, I'll take a law suit and criticism about a dog that is out of control every time thanks.

I can't keep my mouth shut on this one, LOL. You are forgetting your third choice......how about keeping YOUR eye on your child?

[Butcher'sDog2]

I'm not sure what to respond to as each query seems to have an answer built in.

I should start by saying that I was fortunate to know one such dog. He is now dead so I can say that he never made an error in judgment. Since I've known that dog I have not been able to settle for anything less. After many dogs that came and went I now own one that is as close to it as I ever got. The dog is 2 years old and I've had him for 2.5 months. Right from the start he has shown some good qualities. Firstly he is structurally correct. He is friendly and has no defensive reaction towards anything my 2 year old has done. He is very alert and observant to everything that goes on, also at a large distance, sights and sounds. Very strong prey drive. Good defensive drive which kicked in after only two days with me as far as alerting inside the house to things that go on outside. Over the last couple of months his alerts diminished. Familiar occurrences such as the neighbors pulling out their garbage bins at night and the arrival of the post man no longer provoke him. I've also started bitework and he's coming out strong.

I've gotten him to CD level and gained his recognition that I'm someone he should listen to. I don't know how things are where you're at Mick. Here in south Florida things appear pretty on the outside however the reality is different. People here do not trust strangers. A smart person who hears an unexpected knock on the door after nightfall first picks up a firearm and then says "who are you and what do you want?" That is how I want my dog.

There have been occasions where he is loose in the yard with me. A person will cross my yard. The dog alerts, makes a rumbling bark and runs over to where the person is. I say "out" and he stops. That's it. I wouldn't let him be on his own outside. If I had a fenced yard I wouldn't care, come in and get bit. I would expect anyone that the dog doesn't know who sets foot on my yard to be rushed. Any person who this happens to will freeze. I know the dog will not bite then. Let them think twice the next time they choose a route through my property. As far as my child, I don't think you understand S Florida. Do not approach my child! I will kill you.

[Mick Trainer]

I'm not sure what to respond to as each query seems to have an answer built in. How about starting with what you want your dog to react with in each scenario you first put up?

I wouldn't let him be on his own outside. Then why do you need him to react on his own when you are there to control him? Little alone take care of the threat on your own.

That is how I want my dog. Fine, and you are better off having him do this on his own as apposed to training him for it how?

Here in south Florida things appear pretty on the outside however the reality is different. People here do not trust strangers. A smart person who hears an unexpected knock on the door after nightfall first picks up a firearm and then says "who are you and what do you want?" .....I don't think you understand S Florida Amen to that. I wouldn't live is such a place. Almost zero people where I live would use a gun for protection and we have little gun related crime so it is very different here but understand I don't have a problem with you having a sharp, ready to work dog, I just think it is more predictable the more you train it including when it is not to work.

Mick.

[Mick Trainer]

Moondog you idiot...You need to shut your trap before you get in on situations you dont know about. Brodster, lets not get into name calling and the making of idol threats here. This is a forum where poeple come to learn and share ideas. Name calling and threats show little but the persons inability to answer a question and highlights their insecurity. This kind of rubbish is beneath you and anyone who comes here. By all means explain what you meant, say you find the question offensive etc etc etc but name calling is for primary school.

Mick.

[mferg]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

... I will not accept a dog taking control of a situtation and to decide for it's self when and where it is to work and feel to do so is to simply to add liability to the training risking the dog, people around you etc with no increase in the dog's ability to defend it's owner etc.

I work with someone who has been working dogs (schutzhund, police, & pp) since the mid 70s. I've frequently heard him tell folks interested in evaluating and training their dog for pp that [he considers] the dog has the decision making ability equivalent of a three year old human (perhaps it was 5). Put in that context, would you rather have a three year old make the decision to act, or the adult human? I certainly agree with Mick that it is the responsibility of the adult human to take control of the decisions to be made in how a pp dog is to react in a given situation.

[Butcher'sDog2]

Originally Posted by Butcher'sDog2

So it's night and I'm sleeping. Someone forces an entry into my house. The dog is aware of the situation but shouldn't do anything because I didn't cue it?

The dog is in my front yard with my child. I'm inside the house for a few minutes. A stranger approaches the child and starts talking to her. The dog is to do nothing?

I'm making a withdraw from an ATM at night. A suspicious looking person approaches from behind that I'm not aware of. The dog is to do nothing until this person actually puts his hands on me?

1. Full out attack as soon as the dog becomes aware of the situation. In all likelihood this will happen before the intruder is in the house. Obviously if he were to enter the house he will be bit.

2. The child and dog would be in my back yard. The dog should have an interest in staying close and keeping an eye on the child. The dog would have been aware of the stranger approaching on the public road. As soon as the stranger would come on the property the dog should rush them and bark in warning. If the person continues to come on the property the dog should bite.

3. The dog would be aware of the suspicious person approaching. At a certain distance, lets say 20ft, the dog should stack (I'll adopt your terminology, thanks) between me and the stranger and bark a warning. If the person comes closer the dog should bite. The dogs tolerance would increase or decrease depending on time of day/night and people traffic.

I feel that with attack training scenarios a dog loses the middle ground where it is possible it will just warn instead of make a full out attack. I don't want to lose this.

I'm not against training, I'm for for training, this is what I do. I believe in bonding, socialization, exposure to all environments and control. Control achieved through obedience training and then close cooperation between handler and dog.

Reliable obedience is inhibitive in nature. As such I believe in having the minimum amount of necessary and effective obedience. So as not to turn the dog into robot/leave it incapable of taking initiative/killing the drive. Robots do not make decisions. They are dependent on someone else making the decision for them.

I know how to do bite development, scenario training, proofing, narrowing down the trigger so the dog turns on at the bad guy when he's 10ft away from the handler, 6ft, 3ft, or wait for physical contact. This kind of training will never replace proper decision making by the dog. The fact that in real life you cue it in one kind of situation does not mean the dog will remember your decision in a similar kind of situation. You can fine tune the scenarios all you want but not even the best decoy can duplicate the energy of every real situation. All you're doing is giving the dog general guidelines based on artificial stimulus.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not diminishing the value of an attack dog. I know how much work it takes and a good dog too. It is also an important source of income for the trainer. This kind of dog can serve his purpose well. I just prefer a different kind of animal.

BTW I completely understand your dislike of a place like S Florida based on my description. I don't like it myself, but there are some benefits.

The main thing I can't stand about internet forums is people who don't know what they're talking about yet interject with their opinions based on something they read or heard. I waste valuable time considering someone's words as sometimes it takes a few posts to determine who's faking it. It is clear to me Mick where you're coming from. I don't need to see proof to know your opinions are from experience and I'm glad to have the possibility of exchanging ideas with you. This is a case where I'm content to agree to disagree.

[s1960]

Butchersdog, when do you know that your dog is a real protection, serious dog and not just a trained in that scenerio, working a certain routine dog?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Butcher'sDog2

1I know how to do bite development, scenario training, proofing, narrowing down the trigger so the dog turns on at the bad guy when he's 10ft away from the handler, 6ft, 3ft, or wait for physical contact. This kind of training will never replace proper decision making by the dog. .

most pp dogs never reach the level of training that micks dogs achieve and what he achieves for his clientele the average pp dog never needs that level of training as the average person does not supply security to others and really for a dog that you have to protect your home and your family when you are out and about does not need that level of training it certainly needs a great amount of control training and you must proof the dog to make sure that it actually has the balz to work civiley and must have the proper tempermant to even begin these things. as far as the dogs decision making ability it is not known how much a dog can assume what is going on around it and access the situation if they had much powers of reasoning and actual thinking they would be untrainable. with that said they do know that a dog of anybreed never progresses past the intellegance of a 2 year old child. i too at one point thought dogs could be safely trained in protection and make decisions but often even when dogs make the right desicion it is the wrong decision. when my daughter was 8 her and a friend were playing in the yard(i might add here that dogs respect children because they see that children are under the protection of the pack leader they do not without this guidance distinguish between adult/teens/children) the shepherd i had at this time(not trained to the level mick needs but never the less trained properly and proofed) always played with all the children in the yard and in your scenarios would have protected any and all of them. as kids do my daughter and her best friend got into an argumant and her friendthen physically attacted her with a bat. the dog did what he was trained to do he bit and contained the other girl. this is just one situation where a dog acted accordingly but had bad turn of events. you simply can not train and proof any dog to every situation that may be possible to encounter regardless who you are and if it was possible you could never practice and proof every possible scenario it would be exhaustive .will my next dog be trained to attack if a physical altercation starts??? of course thats common sense. should it attack an intruder that comes into my home of course. dogs like mick trains are much safer in public and do a better job at protection than yours and by you letting your dog make decisions your nothing but an accident waiting to happen. in the mean time lets just hope some drunk doesnt stumble up behind you at an atm it would be tiiring to support there drinking habits after the lawsuit.

[Ostory]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

This is the same type of self rightous rubbish I hear from certain aspects of the sport all over the world to try to drive up their own stocks and to create an image of them looking down at their poor second cousins who train dogs to work in the real world and is such division that weakens the whole working dog industry. Do you seriously think that a dog that is trained in a routine fashion, who is conditioned to do it's exercises on a controlled field really is under better control than a dog that is trained to do the same things in a real life situation with the variables that come with that? On a field you are correct you loose points, but on the street that may make the dog ineffective at it's job, may create a situation where the handler is in harms way, where a member of the public is put at risk etc.
Mick.

I could careless about my "stock". I don't train for anyone but my own enjoyment, so I don't care if my "stock" is high or low. The Street may be different from competition, but the dog's character is the same if he is trained for the Street, Schutzhund or just a pet. The dog is what he is regardless. My point is that the Sport of Schutzhund is a great test of the dog for any circumstance. That is not to say that a Top Schutzhund dog would be the best for any circumstance, but by the time the dog were to complete it's training you would know for sure if the dog could handle any circumstance or not.

On the other hand, it's my experience that PP dogs are worked with less concern to control, and more towards being aggressive. I am sure their are exceptions. It is also my experience that PP trainers that discount Schutzhund do so because they lack the ability to do well in the sport. I am sure there are exceptions, but this has been my experience.

Here is a challenge, go post a G score at a National event ( that is 240 points ) and then come back and tell us Schutzhund has no value.

[Butcher'sDog2]

Originally Posted by lblax

most pp dogs never reach the level of training that micks dogs achieve and what he achieves for his clientele the average pp dog never needs that level of training as the average person does not supply security to others and really for a dog that you have to protect your home and your family when you are out and about does not need that level of training it certainly needs a great amount of control training and you must proof the dog to make sure that it actually has the balz to work civiley and must have the proper tempermant to even begin these things. as far as the dogs decision making ability it is not known how much a dog can assume what is going on around it and access the situation if they had much powers of reasoning and actual thinking they would be untrainable. with that said they do know that a dog of anybreed never progresses past the intellegance of a 2 year old child. i too at one point thought dogs could be safely trained in protection and make decisions but often even when dogs make the right desicion it is the wrong decision. when my daughter was 8 her and a friend were playing in the yard(i might add here that dogs respect children because they see that children are under the protection of the pack leader they do not without this guidance distinguish between adult/teens/children) the shepherd i had at this time(not trained to the level mick needs but never the less trained properly and proofed) always played with all the children in the yard and in your scenarios would have protected any and all of them. as kids do my daughter and her best friend got into an argumant and her friendthen physically attacted her with a bat. the dog did what he was trained to do he bit and contained the other girl. this is just one situation where a dog acted accordingly but had bad turn of events. you simply can not train and proof any dog to every situation that may be possible to encounter regardless who you are and if it was possible you could never practice and proof every possible scenario it would be exhaustive .will my next dog be trained to attack if a physical altercation starts??? of course thats common sense. should it attack an intruder that comes into my home of course. dogs like mick trains are much safer in public and do a better job at protection than yours and by you letting your dog make decisions your nothing but an accident waiting to happen. in the mean time lets just hope some drunk doesnt stumble up behind you at an atm it would be tiiring to support there drinking habits after the lawsuit.

Had the dog in your story mauled the other child severely as it would have had it been in full attack mode it would support everything I'm saying. I can't make that conclusion not knowing exactly what happened and the kind of bitework/training your dog was exposed to. A protective dog acting naturally would have neutralized the threat without going overboard. Maybe bumped the other child or gripped without breaking skin. Doing so to a child who goes to hit mine with a bat is justifiable in my opinion. I wouldn't leave the dog out of my sight with a few children though. It would have to be a very proven dog to do so and even then I don't think I'd let it happen unsupervised. Leaving the dog with my one child however while I'm in another room is something I do all the time.

People who equate the dogs decision making capabilities to that or a 2 or 3 year old child are clueless. Dogs can make some very quick and complicated judgments based on the situation they are faced with. Think of what it takes to work in a pack and take down prey. Most dogs however live very sheltered lives and their life experience is very small. They are allowed to do very few things on their own volition. This leads to an underestimation of their capabilities.