Protection Training is not game...

[German Vanegas]

While I thought that I had been quite clear about dog protection training, it seems like a few people needs more detailed information about this issue, so I felt compelled to write this very brief topic: "Protection training is not game"

As I have said before many times, a protection trained dog demands many responsibilities and obligations to the owner/handler of such dog, such as:

1. The right selection of the dog: the puppy has to have to have a solid genetic background with protection titled or service ancestors, plus a sound stable temperament (here, the reputation of breeder is vital to have an idea of what you may eventually are going to end-up with). Of the thousands of AKC registered Rottweilers in the USA, roughly about 10% of them are really qualified to do protection work. That fact, right there, leaves out about 90% of AKC Rotts able to do schutzhund or protection. If you get an ADRK German Rottweiler, the odds of getting a good candidate for protection or schutzhund increases to more than 90%. But, the the puppy's purchasing price makes a BIG difference. An ADRK puppy is going to cost you about 3 to 5 times more than the AVERAGE price for an AKC registered Rott. So again, this protection dog is not just everybody. Analyze those numbers carefully.

2. Then it gets more complicated than just the above, the dog owner or handler have to commit and devote a great deal of time to the appropriate upbringing and training of the dog, which starts right from the moment you buy that puppy with protection training in mind. Such training is developed throughout different stages, some of those you can do alone or with little help, but at one point you are going to need serious professional guidance. Now, If you have the knowledge, the training, and the experience to "do-it-yourself", you still are going to need to spend some considerable amount of money, in buying the right necessary protection training equipment, which it's quite costly. And even if you can afford to get the training equipment, you still will need assistance from experienced helpers (agitators, decoys, whatever). If you know people that will do it for free, fine. If not, you will have to pay for this professional assistance (and it's no just a "macho" guy that puts on a sleeve and "goes at the dog"...it just doesn't work that way). If you join a local schutzhund club you still have to commit lots of time to do it right. Well, you can always send your dog to the "dog training school" and saved yourself of all the hassle, right? First of all, make sure that you find a knowledgeable-experienced-professional that is really capable of doing protection training. There are a lot of characters that self-appointed themselves a such trainers, and just grab a stick and start beating the tied-up dog, until the poor dog, out of fear, barks, growls and may even "fear-bite", and then: Viola! "There you have your protection dog"...not so, this barbaric unprofessional trainer (there is a better name for this individual, but for obvious reasons it's not allowed in this forum) has created a dangerous vicious dog that will attack anybody on sight due to such irrational "training". This IS NOT what protection training is all about! If you are lucky and really find a qualified protection trainer, be prepared to spend several thousands dollars to get a true reliable personal protection dog, that will know when to, and when not to, to protect and defend you, your family, or property, in lawful self-defense.

3. Now, lets imagine you did everything right and you ended-up with a protection trained dog. You still have to "refresh" and maintain the dog under regular training sessions...and be willing to confront the criminal and civil liabilities that imply to have a Rottweiler protection trained. Even if your well-bred & well-trained Rottweiler bites someone justifiably in self-defense, still you may face unwanted trouble ...Unscrupulous lawyers will "jump-in" to twist the facts and try to get money out of you for the"poor" criminal. Oh yeah, it does happen.

How many of you feel capable to get involved in such demanding training and responsibility? Um, I wonder how many.

And please, don't buy Rottweilers because the description of the breed says something about them being "naturally protective and that it's a natural guard dog"... simply because that it is not truth at all Remember: genetic make-up + temperament + training = protection dog. Besides, an untrained or badly trained Rottweiler is perhaps more dangerous than any other type. If you want a "guard" dog, be careful: you may get more than you are looking for...and actually can handle. Now, lets rock! I want to hear opinions. Thanks!

[Liz]

German, I still think you wrote a very good explanation and I agree with just about everything, however, if you *want* me to nitpick!!

"If you get an ADRK German Rottweiler, the odds of getting a good candidate for protection or schutzhund increases to more than 90%."

Not really. Many dogs from well bred litters in Germany fail the protection portion of the ZtP. Dogs are sold all the time to the US who could not withstand the stick hits in the ZtP. A dog that cannot withstand an attack with an object is worthless as a protection dog. There's also a reason for that gunsureness test too - many dogs fail it. IMO, your odds on a puppy from ADRK parents are about 50% - better than AKC, but still iffy.

"Well, you can always send your dog to the "dog training school" and saved yourself of all the hassle, right? First of all, make sure that you find a knowledgeable-experienced-professional that is really capable of doing protection training."

IMO (again), if you truly have a need for a personal protection trained dog, why are you sending that dog off to learn to protect someone else? The dog needs to bond with you, and learn to obey you, not some guy who's taking your $250/week.

"and be willing to confront the criminal and civil liabilities that imply to have a Rottweiler protection trained."

You also need to confront your personal responsibilities. Are you emotionally prepared to watch this dog die for you? I'm not, I'm a lousy pp dog owner - I did all the training, and then realized that I was SO bonded to the dog that I would probably put myself in danger were she in a situation which might cause her harm. Therefore, I made the decision to use my dogs for deterrants only - if a situation occurs in which we are both fighting for our lives, well, then so be it, but I would not give her up for the world. For that reason, Perry has been taught some things differently - a side swipe for a gun arm rather than a frontal, a bark and hold, ankle attacks rather than chest/neck attacks - things designed to bring the guy down rather than take the dog out while I escape.

Do you have a plan in place should you predecease your dog? Janni does not do well with strangers because of her training, nor does Perry. There are very few people who could handle either one of them, so I have a list of homes that they should go to, and my relatives and friends have this list. It's not enough to put it in your will, no dog disposal should be left in a will, will's have to go through probate and if you have not left specific pre-probate instructions, you have no idea what will happen to your dogs. Just as they are responsible for you when you undertake pp training, you are responsible for them.

"How many of you feel capable to get involved in such demanding training and responsibility? Um, I wonder how many."

Well, by the time Perry gets old and grey, I'll be old and ugly enough that I don't have to worry about the reason I've got a pp dog in the first place http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

Liz







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http://www.inxpress.net/~harkon/

[German Vanegas]

Liz,
Well, that was the kind of reply I was expecting from you. Thank you so much! It's well written, self-explanatory, and based of true knowledge and experience.

Now, allow me to respond to your questioning and remember, when I started my topic I wrote "very brief". You know that there is no unlimited space to write at lenght about all these issues, but all you can do is present a general idea... and take it from there.

1. I've said before: Germans do not sell their best dogs to importers. In reality, most German breeders sell their "sub-standard" dogs to foreigners. They called it: "dumping". They get rid off the dog and still make money out it. But if you KNOW who you are dealing with, you can certainly can obtain a puppy from the right blood lines and temperament with excellent chances to do potential protection work...and I also well know that there are no guarantees at all...However, you have better chances with an ADRK dog than just getting an "AKC reg. Rott". Agree?

2. When I said you can send your dog to be trained, I was being sarcastic. I have always advocate bonding with you dog, and sending the dog to be trained is no the best way. But some people think that that way they get "free from such hassle" and I believe that's very wrong. I pointed- out that the odds of finding a REAL GOOD professional trainer are no so-good. I mentioned that a schutzhund club is the best way to go. I said it.

3. Civil and criminal liability imply personal responsabilities. The purpose is to warn the prospective owner of a protection dog that he/she better be willing to accept full responsabilty for owning such trained dog. A Rottie is a formidable impossing look, badly trained and cared for is an "accident" waiting to happen, with possible tragic consequences. This is a very serious matter to me. I guess you concur with me on this one?

4. When I said "how many people are willing to take such responsability?" I was not reffering at all to you as an expert, but only to the novice, amateur, the one that has no idea about what he/she may get into. So this point is moot: it was never meant for the responsible knolwedgeable people... like yourself and some others in this fine Group.

But I honestly thank you again, Liz. Your participation in this Group is highly appreciated, and I'm the first one to always welcome it.

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited December 08, 1998).]

[bearkat]

I do not profess to be an authority on Rotts, and I certainly don't want my dogs to be viewed as "viscious". My female is naturally very protective, and my oldest male (her nephew) is that way as well. When I got my two older dogs, I didn't really care what their "protection" abilities were. When I got Rotten, as a pup, it occurred to me that it would be years before he was inclined to be a guardian, so we bought Geesa as an adult, because I had some personal protection issues, and the breeder said "Geesa was the girl for you!" Little did I know, that this dog, who had not been trained in protection, would be such a protector. I would challenge anyone to try to get into my house, approach me in public with menace, or try to get near our house if she is in her pen. I also would not recommend a dog of Geesa's temperment to anyone, unless they were willing to work with her. Before we got her, she used to go to show and tell at a grade school, and she is retired from the showring, where that type of behavior is obviously frowned upon. Within two weeks of getting her, she decided that I was hers, and she takes her job very seriously. I also feel that Rotts have an inherent propensity toward protecting their "people". I didn't get my Rotts to impress my friends or make enemies of my neighbors. I got them, firstly because just by their size, they are intimidating, and secondly, because they are so loyal. I had a Golden that was a "whore", wouldn't stay home, loved everyone, would show a burglar the silver, and you can bet, even with my untrained, novice dogs, that noone would even want to know where the silver was!!

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[bearkat]

Also, I forgot to add that both my big dogs are very good in public, as long as they are introduced to new people and new experiences. A stranger can approach either one (with the dog on a leash), be introduced, and then they could pet the dogs, and Rotten will even give people kisses after he knows them for a while. I really respect what some of you are doing with your dogs, and German, I respect what you are doing to educate people about the breed. I personally don't take myself quite a seriously as some of you, and I will never be able to train any dogs for work, showing,or protection due to the fact that I am handicapped. The best Rotten and I have done is pull a wagon around, and he gets the newspaper for me from the box. Oh well.... but, I really enjoy reading what other people have done, and their concerns about our beautiful Rotties!!

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[German Vanegas]

Bearkat,
"Naturally" protective Rottweilers are no the ideal protection dogs.

Why? Simply because such "natural" protective dog may attack at will, whenever the dog feels like there is a threat. In fact, such dogs are responsible for many of the unprovoked or accidental bite incidents we see and hear all the time.

A professionally protection trained dog learns when to, and when not to, react to real threats and also under a given command. But more importantly, it learns to obey to the command of "OUT" or "AUS", which it means: RELEASE THE BITE!

What would happen if your dog attacks someone and your dog won't respond to your pleas to stop? Think about it. Scary thought, isn't. It happens all the time, Rott owners are not prepared for such situation. And believe me, if your dog is not trained to release a bite, you may be in for a rude awakening: the dog won't stop... and the damage can be tremendous. Say your dog attacks by mistake an innocent person, and you try your best to stop the aggression but, for lack of such training, your dog will be totally focus on the attack....and won't obey.

Once again, protection dogs are not for everybody... "watch-alarm" dogs are what most people really need.
Thank You!

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited December 28, 1998).]

[Nancy Estes]

Well, it seems like I'm yakking all over the place here but there are some very good discussion topics at this site, so can't resist.

I think both German & Liz's posts are very good. And I especially agree with the "naturally protective" part - without further training the dog CAN become a liability. You're depending on the dog to make the decisions with no human control or intervention and I agree that this isn't a good idea. Also Liz's point that some of the highly trained dogs are not readily adaptable to other owners should the need arise.

I think part of the problem is people who do not really *know* their dog/s, trained or not. This only becomes a problem with a dog like a Rottweiler - on the large size, already has a bad rep, capable of serious physical damage, etc. I'm not worried about someone who doesn't know his Chihuahua. And I'm not talking about *gang* types or *macho* type owners but rather basically well-intentioned people who think that: (a) their dog is naturally protective and, therefore, they don't need to do any further training; or (b) do work in SchH or just protection work of some type but still don't really know their dog well enough to be a really responsible owner of a dog of this type.

Anyway, I agree that protection training is a serious responsibility and I hope this topic is read by everyone on the list.


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von Dorow Rottweilers

[Hellothere]

Very good topic. Important for everyone.
I can only add my opinion:
Problem or irreliable dog = Problem or irreliable owner/handler

[Killfactor]

I would like to point out to anyone who wants a Rott for "natural" guarding ability, that there are many many dogs better at guarding if you do not want to train, as Rotties were bred to both guard and herd, they can also be slow to bite, and merely corner and intimidate. Anyhow, i dont believe in somewhere in the middle, if you own a Rott, either go all the way with its training for pp sch, or just obediance so it can lounge on your new carpet and not rip the cable guys arm off while you wait for you favorite show to come back on. I guess what I am trying to say is.....dont throw the dog in your back yard when you get home from the breeder, feed it once a day by throwing the food out the back window, and expect it not to gnaw on the neihbors kid who jumped the fence to get his ball. The whole Idea of training is just that, knowing when to, and when not to protect. If you cant handle training in at least simple sit, stay, come, down commands, buy a cat.

[German Vanegas]

Killfactor,
Very good reply. However, there is no such thing as other dog breeds better for "guard" work. As long as is a well-bred Rottweiler, with a stable desired temperament and working drives and professional protection training, this dog will meet and exceed most expectations. But it's not just for anyone; it takes long hours of work and devotion to the dog. Not many want to do that.

Spooky-shy dogs that corner themselves out of fear are the product of BAD breeding, not the breed itself.

Sadly, you are right, most people unrealistically expect their dogs to grow within the "description of the breed", as if it will happen by itself. I hear too many rott owners saying: "Well, a rottweiler is a rottweiler, and they are NATURALLY protective!" Quite wrong, with that kind of belief an accident will happen...
Thanks!