Herding

[Lady B]

Orville: I train my rescue, Baron, in herding. There is a web site www.ewe-topia.com that will give you more information. The owners, Joe Kapelos and Linda Leeman, are wonderful!! Joe & Linda are herding trail judges with some 25 years combined experience. They use a variety of sheep on the farm. I don't know the acerage but it is sizeable.

Give them a call at 253-843-2929 in Roy, WA. They will be extremely helpful and informative. On top of that, you'd won't meet nicer people!! They are HARD to get a hold of because they are either training or herding, just leave a message and tell them that Baron's mom directed you to them.

As far as Rotties' overall performance in herding I can only speak to Baron. But in the Rotties' history they were initially used for herding -- so "it's in the genes". I am very pleased with his progress(actually ecstatic!). We initially went to Joe because of Baron's dog aggression and to give him "a job" other than fending off all other dogs. He still has a bit lingering but his behavior in 5 months of once a week herding is nothing short of phenomenal to me. I did this to save his life and it's working. Baron is becoming what I want for him. He is alive and socially functional. I am so grateful for the resource Joe and Linda have provided not only in herding but for behavior problems. Their techniques speak to the issue you raised earlier regarding rescues and that not all can be due to behavior. Baron and other dogs who have been to Ewe-Topic are testimony to the effectiveness of thier techniques. Joe will relate you how one dog was brought to him who would bite at any dog or person, even his owner!! This dog now has a CD or CDX.

Hope this is helpful to you. Also, for me, I enjoy herding more than obedience. It's more relaxed and informal!!

[This message has been edited by Lady B (edited December 20, 1998).]

[frontierrots]

10 sheep can be kept on 5 acres IF you also feed them hay and grain. With sheep as big a pasture as possible because they eat the grass down to the roots in small areas
Hair sheep are better for dog work if you can find them as they rarely overheat. otherwise any fairly non nerotic sheep will due. Preferably sheep that are used to being worked by dogs. Regular wool sheep MUST be shorn each spring or they overheat and get skin problems
I have rarely seen a rott do badly in herding-bad meaning try to eat the sheep
Some do not have the instinct to herd but the testers I have spoken to say that rotts have a high pass rate in herding instinct tests
To get herding titles you need to work with an experienced trainer/competitor as it gets complicated regarding patterns

I have 3 generations of herding instinct certified rotts 4 dogs total. All passed with ease displaying lots of instinct. However I do not have the time to drive the 80 miles one way to herding instruction to obtain any herding titles

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Diane
Frontier Rottweilers & Shiba Inu
www.w3-sales.com/frontierrots/main.htm

[Hackel]

LadyB, it was my understanding that the Rottweiler was originally bred for 'driving' cattle and not 'herding'. I have been led to understand that there is a difference between the two terms. Since you are involved in this area, can you clear this up?

Thank you...

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Von Der Ehrenwache Kennels
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/5378/
***Working dogs are "bred" and rarely "made"***

[nick teifke]

what about herding instinct tests? how do i find out if there will be any in my area, do i call someone or check a website? i live in central wisconsin.

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nick teifke
nteifke@kcc.com
www.angelfire.com/wi/1strottie

[frontierrots]

I called several area kennel clubs and herding breed clubs and made a list of all tests and locations.
They are usually few and far between.
My first 2 were HIC tested on Cape Cod at a Belgian Shepherd club test- they were the only 2 rotts entered and all flocked to the ring to "watch the rotts eat the sheep"! My dogs herded the sheep it was the Tervuren who ate the sheep!
My 3rd was at an all breed kennel club dog show in Connecticut and the 4th was at an all breed kennel club show a strenous 2 miles from my home!

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Diane
Frontier Rottweilers & Shiba Inu
www.w3-sales.com/frontierrots/main.htm

[Orville Story]

I have never worked a dog on Herding and would like as much information as possible. Some questions that I have:
1. How much land would be required to maintain 10 Sheep?
2. What are the best sheep to train with?
3. How do rotties preform in herding overall?

Any other advise would be welcomed.

[Killfactor]

Well, when I researched rotties before I bought I read that that is where they get their "stare" and intimidation skills from, a good dog would find the dominant bull, gain its dominance, then work the cattle. I also read in the same article that is why rotties are more reluctant to bite than many other guard dogs, usually just bullying there way through. Sounded good to me, anyone else hear that one? My breeder said to me when I asked, that she has a herding rottie and doesnt suggest it to someone who has kids and other dogs, hers always wants to bump and herd the rest of the family.

[frontierrots]

no offense to your breeder , but that is
a pretty dumb thing to say to a puppy
buyer!
Rotts with strong herding instinc will
herd and bump children and pets without
a single minute of training. And in fact
it is 1 of the clues I look for to
determine if the dog has the instinct!
My Xena was herding the other pups in
the litter at 12 weeks! Fiona herded the
kids on their bikes (our kids in our
driveway) at 1 year old.
The pups with really strong herding
instinct will also circle you as you
walk attempting to herd you- I have 3
right now that do this.
All in all I feel the training would
give a strong instinct dog an
appropriate outlet for these urges and
then you can teach them to not herd the
children if you want and they will
understand that it is sheep they are
suppose to do that with

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Diane
Frontier Rottweilers & Shiba Inu
www.w3-sales.com/frontierrots/main.htm

[German Vanegas]

I'm with Hackel. For herding you are much better off with a shepherd dog...Probably the finest herding breed is the Border Collie. Rottweilers can herd, but it is not the best of their working traits. I believe Rotts excel at many other tasks, but herding is one that is dissapearing in these modern times.

Now take it easy Diane. I know you have certified herding Rotts and I admire and respect that, but they are a minority and you know it.
Thank you!

[Lady B]

Hackel: Semantically what is the difference between herding or driving? None that Webster's has come up with. Either way the dog is keeping the sheep or cattle in a group, close to you, bringing in the stray ones and moving them where you want them to be. The commands for herding would be the same whether you are training, in trials or on a drive. The former is done now because drives are a thing of the past. Unless the dog was taken to a Dude Ranch for that specific purpose. And he better be in darn good shape for a cattle drive!! Hopefully the cattle would be used to being herded by a dog rather than being "green". I'd like to do that sometime with Baron, rather than trialing. I think it would be more challenging than trialing in a corral or open field. And I better be in shape for that as well!! But Baron and me have a ways to go before we are even close to trialing. It's a long way to Ewe-Topia and sometimes even once a week can be pretty hard on me. Like Diane stated, we are both time challenged.

Killfactor: What you're talking about is called "using eye". Baron uses a lot of eye in the corral. Some other breeds use bites on the backside, barking, and charges. That is called "loose eye". And sometimes for no apparent reason your dog (of any breed) will simply want to have lambchops or filet mignon for dinner.

German: Even though herding appears to be disappearing in these "modern times", perhaps the old ways are sometimes better?

[Liz]

We still do cattle drives up here in old backwards Wisconsin We just keep 'em shorter than those long hauls they do out west. It's a days ride on a horse and a days run for the dogs, nothing out of the ordinary for working herding dogs.

Up till this year, Janni used to help move a friends beefalo herd a few times a year, two of her puppies are active working herders at a dairy farm in southwest WI. I've never done HIC's or HIT's, the cattle we worked were dog broke, we worked with an Aussie, two BC's and a couple of other rottweilers. Perry's not going anywhere near cattle, dog broke or not, he'd think they were just moving steaks - his mother was mouthy enough with the stock. Tessi's not built right to go out with cattle, she's too stocky and not as agile as Janni, and Ascan - we'll see, I'm not sure what he'll think of them

Liz

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http://www.inxpress.net/~harkon/


[This message has been edited by Liz (edited December 23, 1998).]

[German Vanegas]

Lady B,
If you want a great protection dog would you choose an Airedale Terrier over a Rottweiler? Well, both breeds are suitable for protection work, but I choose the one that is the fittest for such task.

Yeah Rottweilers can herd and all, but it is my opinion (ONLY) that if you want the best suitable dog breed for such task, I would pick a shepherd dog... or the fabulous Border Collie...There is no doubt that the Rottweiler is a multipurpose talented dog that can accomplished many tasks... but the Rottweiler excels at some traits better than others, and herding it's not its best.... even though it can do it. If you have Rotts that are great at herding, my sincere congratulations! Enjoy them.
Respectfully,
German

[Lady B]

Liz: I like your style & humor!! Backwards Wisconsin? I don't think so -- as a small child my family lived in Reedsburg for about 3 years and then decided to move to the "Real West", Colorado. And back then cattle drives did take place but on the scale you've mentioned.

Anyway, I am really challenged by the idea of a 1 or 2 day drive. I'm going to check with Joe to see if he knows if this occurs way up here in the very wet Pacific NW. I'm simply a country girl stuck in the big city. Should'a married that farmer way back when.

German: Maybe, maybe not. Last year I was at my first SchH trial and saw a lab earn his SchH I or II. I was totally amazed as was everyone else there - except those who knew the owner and dog. Temperament wise I doubt a Lab could be used for protection work, but then anything is possible until proven otherwise!

I really enjoy watching Baron work sheep. It's an active sport we both can participate in and, from my point of view, requires more physical stamina and endurance than the other s. Except tracking which naturally progresses into S&R.

I find it interesting how we all work our Rotties on what suits each individual dog best and our respective life styles. It's a matter of preference. At one point, because of Baron's structure and agility I had considered SchH but his dog aggression forced the issue. The other determining factor is it really is not what I wanted to do with him or felt that I would really enjoy the sport. But to be truly alive one must learn a new thing each year -- so who knows what my future will bring with Rotties.



[This message has been edited by Lady B (edited December 22, 1998).]

[German Vanegas]

Orville,
I'm not trying to discourage you from pursuing your herding venture at all. I just gave my general opinion on the issue. I congratulate you for having taking upon such challenge to demonstrate the multi-capabilities of the great Rottweiler. Go for it!

Lady B,
Your amazement about finding out that Labs have gotten SchH titled, do not surprise me at all. In fact, that's one of the biggest misconceptions of people, that beleive that GSDs and Rotties are the "schutzhund" leaders. Well, I KNOW of Black Labradors, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, American Pitbull Terriers, Cairn Terriers, Boxers, American Bulldogs, and many other dog breeds that have been trialed and obtained different SchH levels. Good point you brought into people's attention: Schutzhund is a dog sport for many breeds.
Thank You!

[Lady B]

Orville: Like Diane said, sheep with hair that have to be shorn every early Spring. Give Joe a call up here in WA (253-843-2929). He has contacts all over the states as he judges on a national level. He or Linda can direct you to someone in your area.

I like your idea to demonstrate the versatility of Rotties.