Schutzhund: End All Of Be All?

[TrishB]

Is Schutzhund the end all of be all? Meaning, is it the only 'true' evaluation of a working dog? Are all other venues pale in comparison? Are CKC / AKC events a joke in comparison?

For some reason, this generates some very passionate views by some - so I'd like to ask that we all keep in mind that everyone's opinion is valid and to respect that.

Personally? While I admire dogs that have trained / competed to high levels in schutzhund - I do not feel that it is the only measurement of a dog. I keep in mind that it is a sport not designed for our breed and therefore, cannot be a 'sole' measurement of them.

I tend to lean to the more versatile, the more adaptive, the better the dog. A dog that can do one thing very well is very nice. A dog that can do everything? Is impressive. It isn't a comparison of single venues, but the ability to compete and work within all of them - the sum of the whole. IMHO

[Skip]

I enjoy the sport...but I don't feel it's a real measure of a working dog. But then I'm not real sure what is...I guess it's what kind of "work" you think a rott should be able to excel at. It's basically a very choreographed routine that some dogs can learn to do. Neither do I necessarily believe (as I've seen a lot of people say) that schutzhund can only be done by dogs with good temperments...and that it actually makes the dog "safer". I've seen quite a few nerve bags that have titled pretty high in schutzhund and look very impressive on the field and at trials,...but some are real actors that I would not consider reliable off the field.

[Canadianrotti]

I am not too sure about this, but I am going to thow it out there anyways.

Rottis were used back in Germany to drive cattle to be sold, then used to guard the $$ on the way home from the auctions, correct??

Then would herding not be a key element into training a rotti to "work", according to it's heritage??

I don't really know the details about Sh. training, but I think having a dog that can do a wide variety of work like herding, carting, protection, etc, makes for a well rounded dog. JMHO

[mrs1885]

[quote][Rottis were used back in Germany to drive cattle to be sold, then used to guard the $$ on the way home from the auctions, correct??

Then would herding not be a key element into training a rotti to "work", according to it's heritage??
/QUOTE]

That is exactly what I was thinking Canadianrotti.

I read an article on Schutzhund today and thought it odd that they were bred (the Rott), according to the article, to drive the flock, pull carts of milk to market, and guard, yet not all those things are required in schutzhund. Then again, it did say that Sch is primarily (or was originally primarily) a GSD sport. So to me, though incredibly impressive to me that they can be trained to do what they do, it isn't what they were bred for in the first place, so I don't think it can be the "be all end all".
Just my opinion....

[fbkeays]

SchH has only been part of the rottweiler history for about 100 years. Rottweilers have herded for a thousand. They have pulled in a harness for as long.

[damp]

No, it’s not the one and only but good and much better than many temperament tests. Schutzhund confirms, that the dog is of good temperament, has drive, is tractable and can work in more than one department.
Schutzhund is learned and the dogs work regarding a set of rule, but definitely not all dogs can learn/do it, due to lack of drives courage and confidence.
However, IMO a dog is not “tested” if it’s not put under so much pressure, so you see the dog’s threshold for fight, defense, aggression, flight… at what level it shifts into an other drive and most important, the dog's ability to recover. That takes more than a Schutzhund!
I like a combination of Sch. Hund and a GOOD tough mental test to measure a Rottweiler.

Originally Posted by Skip

Neither do I necessarily believe (as I've seen a lot of people say) that schutzhund can only be done by dogs with good temperments...and that it actually makes the dog "safer". I've seen quite a few nerve bags that have titled pretty high in schutzhund and look very impressive on the field and at trials,...but some are real actors that I would not consider reliable off the field.

I have seen a very few of those too, but it’s the exceptions to the rule I think (also because NO responsible club or helper would allow nervy dogs to do bite work) and those questionable Schutzhunds I have seen also failed so badly at the mental test.

[Obelix]

A good Rott is an all-round dog.Every high specialism can make one good in that one thing but then there is no time for training other disciplines.So it depend on the dogs heritage and breeding whether he's an all-rounder or not.I expirieenced that dogs with these characters are NOT the easiest ones to train.They are very aloof and self- asured,not the kind off dog the modern Rott-people prefer

[Liz]

"A dog that can do one thing very well ..."

I'm confused...aren't tracking, obedience and protection three things?

For me it is the end all, it's the sport I've chosen to compete in, thus I look for dogs who are able to compete in all three venues. There aren't many, and I include some of my own dogs in that

Liz

[RottsNScotts]

I have had a number of acquaintances and friends seriously question the sport of Sch, usually based on what they have seen "trained" in their area. I point out to them that judging an entire sport on what one sees at a possibly "fly by night" training school or group is about like deciding what obedience is by watching a class at PetSmart or a neighborhood class. One should search out very good to excellent examples before judging the sport.

That being said, I have done Sch, obedience, carting, herding, and tracking with my Rotties at very high levels. While each venue teaches me something about my dogs, I will also say that no other sport tells me as much about my dog nor makes a stronger bond between me and my dog...okay, except for police work with my dog!

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by Obelix

A good Rott is an all-round dog.Every high specialism can make one good in that one thing but then there is no time for training other disciplines.So it depend on the dogs heritage and breeding whether he's an all-rounder or not.I expirieenced that dogs with these characters are NOT the easiest ones to train.They are very aloof and self- asured,not the kind off dog the modern Rott-people prefer

Obelix, I'm sorry but I would have to strongly disagree!!! With all of this!!! As far as "no time for training other disciplines", that totally depends on how crazed one is! (Not having family commitments also helps but I know quite a few WITH family commitments that manage!)

I have found that Rotties generally have an amazing ability to do work, even when it has not been "selected" for for generations.

As far as aloof, self assured, you should have met Abbo - umpteen National, World and Regional championships and HIT's - but SLIME KING of the world; you weren't "dressed" until he had slimed you! and Toby, whose dad was a Sch III but nothing behind that and whose mom had a CD but nothing behind that who became nationally ranked, multiple times, in Sch tracking, conformation, herding and, once, obedience. He was the "suck up" king of the world and so are his kids!

Then I have my current Bandit who gets SO excited to meet new people, he about wiggles himself to pieces who is progressing so fast in Sch that I am quite sure he is watching Abbo videos while I am sleeping! His obedience will also be top notch as well as tracking and carting. He is kindly on sheep, just way FAST and I chose not to reduce/control that drive at this time as my goal for him is Sch III and world team!

[RottsNScotts]

Oops, forgot...Sch was developed as a breed test for another HERDING breed, the GSD, so to say it is an invalid test for our HERDING breed would not be correct, in my opinion.

And Skip, it may not necessarily make the dogs any "safer" but it seems to make the owner "safer", as far as dog awareness and care, given that the dogs involved in the fatalities and bad bite incidents we hear about are NOT Sch titled dogs although some have been Ch and obedience titled dogs!

Sorry all, I am a BIT passionate about my sport!!! (You would have NEVER guessed, right? VBG!)

[Obelix]

Do you have any idea how he would react in a situation that was not trained? Some mentioned that they had to herd and protect on THEMSELVES and that 's how it was.This was one of the reasons why it were pretty hard dogs.When we talk about Sch. It's learned behaviour.Just a reaction out of the blue(as in some tests) with a "green" or not ScH trained dog gives IMO an indication of what that dog caracter really is and for me ,it is more valuable then any title earned by hard work.Don't misunderstand me:a Rott has to work but a title ,Sch or not ,it does say very litlle about the dog.

[RottsNScotts]

Not sure which "he" you mean but in all cases, he would look to me to decide how I want the situation handled. It is something I also feel passionate about, my dogs DO NOT make their own decisions, not even my police dog was allowed to do so. And whether or not that is historically what they were meant to do, it certainly is the best way for them to live in society now and still have the characteristics I desire in my dogs, courage, hardness, biddability, trainability, socialness...

I don't think Rotties were "guardian" dogs of flocks where they did their protection work of the flock undirected such as Pyr's, etc.

And I would disagree with you about a title, especially Sch, saying very little about the dog. I would say, rather, that one would have to either see the dog work themselves or know how to "read" a scorebook. If one was just going on the "fact" that the dog had a title, in my opinion, it would most generally tell you that the dog had more biddability/trainability than a dog that didn't have title, all else being equal.

I have told many, many friends that, in my opinion (sorry, have a lot of those!), the BEST AND PERFECT dog is most likely sitting in someone's back yard, untested, untitled. But, that makes it NOT the best and perfect dog because it can only be BEST and PERFECT if it has brought it to the light of day.

Are the world's best songs the best if they are never heard but only rolling through someone's head?

[Obelix]

It doesn't matter if the "best" dog is sitting a BY and it is not brought to daylight .What matters is that's it 's a dog you can relay on.Not every one wants to compete with his dog , so a maybe a good breed potential is lost,but I am sure there are competent people and dogs enough to make the breed survive.

[miccmill]

Schutzhund confirms, that the dog is of good temperament, has drive, is tractable and can work in more than one department.
Schutzhund is learned and the dogs work regarding a set of rule, but definitely not all dogs can learn/do it, due to lack of drives courage and confidence.

This make very good sense to me.

Like Damp has pointed out, the sport of Schutzhund can define a Rottweilers strength (mental and physical) as well as it's temperment.
A Rottweiler successful or fit for Schutzhund work would be suited to other endeavors.

From a purist point of view, isn't that the most appropriate level of training/work/sport for this breed?