Schutzhund: End All Of Be All?

[poohbearsmom]

Dogs who are trained in sports like SchH are dogs that have been trained to work in drive, and be controlled while in drive. This is probably the most important aspect of this type of training - CONTROL = trained dog.

Dogs who earn a CGC show that the handler has a minimal amount of control over the dog.

Dogs who earn actual OB titles have been trained more, and show a higher level of control, tractability and handler awareness, etc...

It does take a dog of certain nerve level to accomplish the above, but it's really no proof of temperament, just time spent training.

Dogs who are trained to levels of SchH, to me, are far safer in the long run, IMHO, because the dogs have actually been trained while in drive (prey, defense, etc..), and have experienced 'listening' to their handler while in those drives.

I guess the same could be said when one is training a dog in herding - after all, herding is quite simply the hunt without the kill - again, the dogs are trained in drive to listen to their handler. It is the handler that calls the shots.

Generalizing of behaviors is important in dog training. The more pressure one can expose a dog to, and help the dog work through, the more control the handler is going to have. CONTROL = trained dog.

While SchH is not a temperament test persay, it is probably the best indicator of temperament we have in the Western Hemisphere. The TT here in the States doesn't hold a candle to those in Denmark and The Netherlands. When you see a dog on a foreign field (not the field it was trained on), this is a new environment, and the weaker dogs many times cannot deal with it.

While I have seen some weaker dogs trained through their weaknesses in protection work (not many trainers can pull this off, BTW), it does take a certain strength character in a dog to be accomplished at the sport.

When dogs are trained in one venue over the other, it's usually because of time and life constraints - not because the dog is incapable of performing other tasks.

I was speaking recently with a friend, and the conversation turned to cross training dogs - most specifically training SchH dogs in Agility - because the agility has a way of making the dog more aware of it's body, and the use of it's limbs - AND because it's a fun, go go go type sport - which can be a real mental relief for dogs who are heavily trained in one venue, such as SchH.

Any type of training is going to increase the bond and enrich the relationship with the handler - as long as the training is done in a fair, humane and consitant way.

Let's also remember : A dog is only trained when it's handler is present. One must be able to guide or correct a dog, rather than rely on a dog to make a rational decision on it's own - ain't gonna happen.

Trish, I have no idea where you come up with the idea that SchH dogs are off the charts and unstable (my perception of your comments).

I have a dog sitting at my feet that's LOVES the bitework, and he's also passed the TDI with flying colors. He's a take anywhere dog, and has proven time and time again that he is stable, strong of nerve and confident in our human world.

Is SchH the end all be all? No, but like I said, it's an excellent indicator of what the dog is made of, since we don't have tough TTs like the Danes and the Dutch.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

Trish, I have no idea where you come up with the idea that SchH dogs are off the charts and unstable (my perception of your comments).

Not at all what I said, not my words and not what I meant whatsoever.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't go down the disclaimer road again. I obviously can't articulate it or it would have been clearly understood by now.

[pazzo]

Elisabeth,
That was a great post, all the things I was thinking (while reading the thread), but was not able to put into words. After all I do think the whole reason (for Schutzhund) is for the love of the animal. I do it to have fun with my dog and create that special bond. If you don't have love in your heart, I don't think you can train/work a dog in any venue, and reach that animals fullest potential. Furthermore if you don't have love in your heart for your animal, you shouldn't be training or working that animal animal anyway.
Sometimes I think people do it for themselves first, I don't think that's fair.

So is it the be all end all? NO. I love it, but if my dog couldn't do it no longer, I wouldn't love him any less than I do now!...and we would definitly seek out other venues! JMO!
Dana

[TrishB]

The attitude in this thread kills me. I've said how impressed I've been by some schutzhund dogs. But somehow, by also referencing the other dogs that I HAVEN'T been impressed by in the sport - it means I know nothing and I'm surrounded by the wrong group of people. Talk about broad strokes.

Like it or not - both good and bad dogs in a sport will leave impressions. I stand by my statements that I do not feel that schutzhund is the end all of be all. That doesn't mean, nor have I said, that I dismiss the sport as a whole. It's my opinion, and no amount of name calling or dismissive comments are going to negate that.

I appreciate a great schutzhund dog that can perform in that venue AND other venues. I personally feel that the versatility proven by being able to work in high levels of schutzhund AND OTHER VENUES is the true test.

I love this breed because of its versatility. I love American Quarter Horses for the same reason. It's the level to which our dogs can reach, across those different sports, that impresses me to no end. We don't have a specialized breed here and I LOVE that. I'm sorry if for some reason that's a slam against a sport that you've chosen to love. Whereas I feel it's a compliment. If you can't accept this particular compliment, so be it.

I feel sorry for those who follow the guidelines of this category: "Working Rottweilers Therapy, Schutzhund, Agility, Carting, Obedience, Personal Protection, Herding, Flyball, Dock Jumping, if it has to do with Working Topics, lets post it here!" and are dismissed because they choose to tote anything BUT schutzhund as the Holy Grail.

Show me a dog that can do many of these sports / tasks? I'll show you one hell of a dog! My opinion is that VERSATILITY is the end all of be all. That includes schutzhund.

[LynnS]

Being new to all things involving dog competition but having dabbled or observed most venues, I think Elisabeth made some escellent points. There are very few venues that really test nerve strength. Especially here in the US....

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by TrishB

...I feel sorry for those who follow the guidelines of this category: "Working Rottweilers Therapy, Schutzhund, Agility, Carting, Obedience, Personal Protection, Herding, Flyball, Dock Jumping, if it has to do with Working Topics, lets post it here!" and are dismissed because they choose to tote anything BUT schutzhund as the Holy Grail. ...
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Having been on this board for a while, you know what makes me happy when I look at the Forums? There's more posts in the Working Forum than in Conformation and Showing.

You know what this means? People are getting off their butts and doing SOMETHING constructive with their dogs.

YAY.

Going through the Working Forum, I see a LOT more posts in regards to Agility these days than anything else. There's quite a few threads on Herding, OB, and even Flyball occasionally. Schutzhund is quite a popular discussion topic, but if you REALLY look at what people are doing, they are utilizing the versatility of this breed to seek out hobbies that interest THEM and afford them the ability to spend quality time with their dogs, in a way that is positive for everyone... the owners, the dogs themselves, and the Breed as a whole.

Kudos to each and every person who gets their dog out of the house and onto the training field - ANY training field.

Like I said before, SchH is not the end all be all... even though it's a trained sport, it is perhaps one of the best tests of character and nerve strength that we have available this side of Europe.