Schutzhund: End All Of Be All?

[Liz]

Originally Posted by miccmill

A Rottweiler successful or fit for Schutzhund work would be suited to other endeavors.

Even rottweilers who "wash" out in SchH, but were bred for it can be succesful in other endeavors. Desh was Dizzy's sister - she did nicely in obedience and tracking, and she worked well in protection, not great, she was what we'd call a club dog. When her bite went wry we placed her in pet home with an interest in agility. With a novice owner/handler she was ranked #9 last year in Novice standard, #8 in Open Jumpers and is getting ready to start working on MACH points now. I don't know all the agility titles, but she recently took second place in Open Std. and finished her title, and she took third place in Exc-A JWW - she needs one more run before moving to Exc-B. We've had other puppies who've done well in obedience, SAR (FEMA cert), flyball and other venues - including herding .


Liz

[jas'smom]

Is Schutzhund the end all of be all? Meaning, is it the only 'true' evaluation of a working dog? Are all other venues pale in comparison? Are CKC / AKC events a joke in comparison?


I agree with Damp here...Schutzhund is not a perfect test of the working dog however I feel it is the best one available at this time. I feel that a dog trained in Schutzhund has the nerve, drive, tractability to excell in just about anything their owner should care to take up....I am not saying that all dogs that achieve a Schutzhund title are deserving of that title....again the test is not perfect but if you are looking for a bench mark for an evaluation its a good one.


Do others pale in comparison??? No I dont think so......i think a dog trained to do agility will have much the same drives...herding takes alot of nerve in my opinion...if you have ever seen a 35 pound cattle dog or a 100 pound rott face down a angry bull with just a look...that takes nerve...These are all good tests, I just feel that Schutzhund is the most practical and effective.

[Brun05]

Schutzhund is merely one sport or venue to test nerves and working characterstics of dogs. Sch was created in the early 1930s for the GSD, meanwhile the Rottweiler had been the first police dog in use in 1908 without any test.

In addition to Sch, but not recognized in the US (but are recognized in Europe) for breeding/temperment/working characterstics are: KNPV, Belgian Ring, French Ring and Mondio Ring. Another sport available in the US is PSA.

If you read up on the ring sports and compared them to Sch you might see some amazing differences that are important in determing a working characterstic and a possible breed choice.

For those that are simply going to discount what I am saying here, and for your information, Mondio Ring (or World Ring) was developed in Europe for ALL (at the time) working dog sports to come together and compete in a single venue. They took parts from Sch, BR, and FR and came up with MR.

For those that might say or think that Rotties can't do Ring sport, do a web search for Rottweiler day (October 2005) in Belgium and take a look at the KNPV, French Ring, Belgian Ring, and Mondio Ring Rotties.

[rottcrazed]

If it is, I am in trouble!!!!!

I work the two dogs that I am currently training 2 days a week (plus little bits and pieces daily - puppy is on the NILIF plan), 2 nights of classes a week almost year round, and we track 3 days a week.

My old boy was the #5 Rott in obedience in Canada in 2002.

I have 3 kids, so my time is short, but I do plan on, once we get our local schutzhund club actually running, to participate as much as possible in any way I can.

However, thus far all I have done in regards to schutzhund is train two dogs to their BH titles, with went right along with their CKC obedience training.

Obedience is my thing and has been for the better part of a decade. It is what I LOVE to do, and to say that by showing my dogs in conformation, working them to their obedience titles (my bitch actually earned her second CDX leg today with a HIC and the highest 'A' score in the trial as well), tracking, etc... is not enough, YIKES. There is just not enough of me to make more time to do more than I already do ....

Kristi

[laurlitt]

IMO and from my experience a dog trained in Schutzhund is better tested/evaluated than a dog who has only done OB or just tracking or just agility or just herding...

I have seen many successful obedience dogs who still like the drive and heart that a true working rottweiler should have (IMO). I have seen dogs work in all three phases in schutzhund and not have what it takes to do the protection phase but did very well in the others...

Schutzhund truly allows the dogs to be evaluated under stressful situations. By stressful I mean some of the pressure put on during protection, the conflict between handler and dog, conflict between dog and helper, the stress of working issues in multiple phases at one time. Also response stress can truly be evaluated by seeing how a dog responds to compulsion. Of course compulsion can be left out of Schutzhund and also included in non-Sch activities, but I don't think a dog can be truly evaluated until the dog has seen compulsion and worked thru it. A dog worked in purely motivation may be hiding a genetic characteristic (if that makes sense).

I feel that by training Maddie in Sch. I know her inside and out... I feel I understand her genetic make-up in more ways than I'd ever understand if we competed in other non-Sch. activities.

If I wanted a rottweiler for other activites (not Sch.), but still wanted a highly competive OB, agility, herding, etc. dog I would still go to a breeding that was proven in Sch...

[TrishB]

I know dogs that work in schutzhund that can't herd, can't get a CGN/CGC, can't get a CH, can't work in agility, can’t work in (CKC/AKC) obedience, etc. While I agree that schutzhund gives a wonderful outlet to a drivey dog, are our dogs really supposed to be *that* drivey? That they can't work in any other venue than when they're allowed to go Mach 2 with their butts on fire by themselves out in a field?

An excerpt from the CKC standard for the Rottweiler Temperament:

Temperament:
The Rottweiler should possess a fearless expression with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. He has a strong willingness to work. In examining a Rottweiler, one should bear in mind that this dog reacts with alertness to his master and his surroundings, and in performing his function in life, the Rottweiler is not expected to submit to excessive handling by strangers.

Many (read not all) of the 'drivey' schutzhund dogs are just roaring to go. Which to me, doesn't exemplify the 'self-assured aloofness' referenced. That to me means a quiet confidence that they can walk into any situation and own it. Without a need to be over the top, unable to simply oversee their new domain.

Now granted, my experience with Schutzhund is limited. But of the few schutzhund dogs that I've been truly impressed by - were also able to work in multiple venues rather than just the one alone.

We have to be careful that we keep the versatility in our breed. To accept only one venue to be the 'judge' of our breed is dangerous. Our dogs were bred to be jacks of all trades. Pets, protectors, herders, able to work in busy city centers without being distracted by the people/dogs/animals, able to work independently and companions for all ages of the family. Other breeds have found themselves bred into corners because they put too much emphasis on one sport or use. We should be mindful not to let that happen to us. JMHO.

The disclaimer of course is that we’re not close to ‘only’ breeding for schutzhund. But ‘specializing’ our breed for *any* one thing, is something we should actively and consciously avoid.

[laurlitt]

I find it very ironic that you can admit to your limited experience with Schutzhund yet still seem to know a lot about the type and claim that they are not versatile and then even think that they can't fit the breed standard of aloofness I promise you that my dog fits the breed standard for temperment better than most non-sch rottweilers I"ve seen. And I promise you that my Sch. dog who has pretty extreme drives is very versatile... She can walk into a rally trial and kick-butt over the other rottweiler team who's handler is begging their dog to complete the course. I've had a judge get the attention of everyone in the crowd and tell them to make sure they watch us b/c we were one of the best working teams she's ever seen... Can you imagine that... a schutzhund dog working in an enclosed area NOT at MACH 2, completely under control and doing obedience?

If we think it's important to keep the workability into a rottweiler then there is no problem with using Schutzhund as an evaluation. A sch. dog CAN transfer over to other venues. Do you not think that tracking and obedience are not other venues? Rally is a subset of obedience, agility is a form of obedience which requires a bit more drive and work ethic, herding requires a strong work ethic & control (yet I think a dog's desire to herd is genetic and independent of whether or not they can do sch). Pulling a cart... come on... my schutzhund dog can pull a cart b/c she understands obedience & has confidence. Search and resuce requires a dog with a strong work ethic and ability to overcome stresses... (which is proven many times over with a sch dog)...

Sometimes it is best to sit back and read and learn about something before making such broad statements about it... especially when it's clear you're lacking in the overall understanding of it. It's okay that you don't do Sch... not all dogs are capable and we are a far way off from making sch. a breeding requirement (although interesting that the ADRK require a Ztp before breeding).

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

I find it very ironic that you can admit to your limited experience with Schutzhund yet still seem to know a lot about the type and claim that they are not versatile and then even think that they can't fit the breed standard of aloofness

Did you not read the next line?

But of the few schutzhund dogs that I've been truly impressed by - were also able to work in multiple venues rather than just the one alone.

This wasn't a broad stroke comment - the schutzhund dogs that have impressed me to no end, could also work in other venues. They could either ramp up or slow down, adjusting easily and freely for the work at hand.

The good schutzhund dogs are truly impressive. Please don't think I would ever consider them anything less.

Side note: It kills me how we have to trip over ourselves here in this forum. It's like we have to put small print on every post with caveats and disclaimers. You'd like to think that you could give me the benefit of the doubt here and just take what I wrote at face value, rather than to take it as some sort of personal affront to your dog. I've never met your dog - but I'd like to think that he'd be one of the great, impressive dogs in schutzhund I referred to (and other various venues you compete in), rather than the latter.

[damp]

I think that Schutzhund is one of the most versatile programs we have, and I agree with what laurlitt said.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by TrishB

You'd like to think that you could give me the benefit of the doubt here and just take what I wrote at face value, rather than to take it as some sort of personal affront to your dog. I've never met your dog - but I'd like to think that he'd be one of the great, impressive dogs in schutzhund I referred to (and other various venues you compete in), rather than the latter.

Trust me Trish... I don't think there was any personal affront to my dog... I, like her, have much great confidence in her abilities as a schutzhund dog and I don't have to prove anything to anyone about her... She has proved herself already many times and will hopefully continue to do so. I use her as an example b/c I have the most experience of training her and can relate it here to this conversation... I use our experiences as resources for this discussion...

I have had 4 working schutzhund dogs in my household. I can honestly say that their true colors as a working dog (whatever venue) are better tested in Schutzhund than anything else. They all have their pluses and minuses and a decision to breed any of them is better made by knowing them thru Sch. otherwise their true colors may never shine.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

I have had 4 working schutzhund dogs in my household. I can honestly say that their true colors as a working dog (whatever venue) are better tested in Schutzhund than anything else. They all have their pluses and minuses and a decision to breed any of them is better made by knowing them thru Sch. otherwise their true colors may never shine.

I appreciate your insight.

[hcelsa]

I truly believe that competing at the highest level in any performance event (working toward an AKC OTCh or CKC MOTCh, a MACH in agility, a SchHII, or an HC) takes an exceptional dog, and a high level of handler/dog teamwork/understanding. I’ve done a bit of everything (Arnie would like me to have enough time to do more SchH), but not at the highest levels so I’ll speak only of herding.

Herding at the beginning levels (in AKC that would be HT/PT and to some degree Started) is not very difficult for the average Rottweiler with an average amount of prey drive. Those titles can be earned with a high drive dog that is barely under control, or they can be earned by a dog with fairly low drive that is “finessed” through the course. A high drive dog (what I prefer since I’d like to go beyond the basics) will take more time to get prepared for these beginning titles, but will be able to go further in the end. Even at the Started level there is some pressure put on the dog, and there are plenty of dogs (my Kyrie being one) that just don’t have what it takes even at that level. You'll see many dogs with test titles, but the percentages (across the breeds) drop at a rapid rate at the trial level.

Why do I think herding is a good test of a dog (and of a handlers dedication to training and really getting to know his/her dog )…
* Herding at higher levels takes a huge amount of time and patience on the part of the handler (for example: Arnie is a talented herding dog whose first exposure to stock was at 5 weeks…he’ll be trialing at the advanced level this summer, and turning 7), it’s not for those who search for immediate gratification. We see a lot of dogs earning an instinct certificate or only beginning titles and then moving on to something else for this very reason.
* Herding requires an extremely sound dog. Working for extended periods of time at multiple speeds, while making quick turns, on different surfaces tests a dog’s body at a higher level than an extended heeling pattern, some sprints and a few jumps. Last spring Arnie easily ran an AD without any additional training for it because he was in herding condition.
* Because herding is controlled prey drive it requires a dog to work through quite a bit of pressure at the higher levels (the ultimate goal from the dogs perspective is dinner…this has to be molded so that the tasks required can be completed and the stock stay safe). The dog needs to have “enough” to push through the addition of rules (that often make little sense to the dog), and exercises/behaviors that are contrary to his/her instinct. This is where many dogs fizzle out…they are completely happy to herd the way they want to, but when they are asked to work by the handlers rules they either explode or quit. The dog experiences quite a bit of conflict when asked to drive stock away from the handler (this goes against the instinct to bring stock to the “pack members” for the “kill”), this is another place where many dogs are “weeded” out for lack of a better way of putting it.
* Herding cattle is a serious test of a dog’s courage. When a dog can hold his/her ground against something that weighs 6-10+ times what he/she does, and then is strong and confident enough to grip either on command or if the cow makes an aggressive move towards the dog there is not doubt that the dog possesses courage (or maybe lacks in self-preservation instinct ). There is definitely a difference between a dog working cattle (that are quite unpredictable), and performing a choreographed routine with a human. The dog is quite aware that the cow could take him/her out, but still has the courage and nerve to move in if necessary. I tend to think that the cattle work requires quite a bit of a dog…and I’ve seen plenty of dogs of a variety of breeds turn tail and run when charged by a cow.
* Herding requires biddability and a desire to work as part of a team. It’s controlled prey drive sometimes at quite a distance. The dog needs to move in on command, back off on command, and when cattle are involved bite on command (and release on command as well). Stock don’t help the situation by standing still so that the handler can come up close and enforce a command, but rather behave as prey making it even harder for the dog to "hear" commands (this is where Arnie's brain fries...he loves a good "fight" too much). The dog also has to learn to trust the handler, and obey even when it goes against his/her instinct in the situation.
* Herding requires a high level of obedience. On an advanced course if the dog does not turn in or stop at exactly the point he/she is asked to the run will not be successful. This is done with the handler standing in one place on the field while the dog and stock move about the course. When working ducks it is even more imperative that the dog respond immediately to commands as just an extra half step will turn a group of ducks away from where they need to go. The dog also has to understand that a challenge from a duck should not be met with anywhere near the amount of force that would be acceptable on larger stock (just like a good dog understands that children are not a threat).

Oh my…this is getting long and is a bit of a ramble so I'll stop here. Hopefully it will help those that aren’t involved in my favorite “dog-sport” start to understand why I think herding (at beyond the basic levels) is a great test of temperament, soundness and work ethic for this breed!

[TrishB]

Wow Becky! That's quite the insight. You also take your dogs into obedience and agility too. Those are some versatile pups!

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by hcelsa

I truly believe that competing at the highest level in any performance event (working toward an AKC OTCh or CKC MOTCh, a MACH in agility, a SchHII, or an HC) takes an exceptional dog, and a high level of handler/dog teamwork/understanding.

Oops...that was supposed to say SchHIII.

And to continue my babbling...
Also, if I've mainly been involved in "X" dogsport I don't think I should make general statements about what it takes or what a dog needs to perform at high levels in "Y" dogsport that I've merely dabbled in a bit (I wouldn't know exactly what a dog needs to be successful in earning an OTCh for example...I could guess based on general dog experience, and I'd probably be fairly close...but I really don't have the right to make generalizations if I haven't been there). There is a huge difference in how much a dog is pushed/tested at the novice levels vs. most advanced levels of any sport...so generalizations shouldn't be made based on novice level participation. People do this all the time and it drives me NUTS!

And one last thought...my herding instructor trained military dogs prior to herding dogs (he's known with the GSD community in our area for being able to bring out drive in a dog that might not be showing as much as he/she could be)...he has said multiple times that while training a competitive herding dog takes more time, in both jobs the dog needs to have similar temperament to be successful at the highest levels.

[damp]

All of my 5 dogs, not all SchH titled (some died to young) but ALL trained in SchH, and even none had CGC nor Therapy Dog titles etc. they all did very well ALSO around 95 disabled and mental retarded when I brought them to work and also when I brought a minor group of mental retarded to my home!
I rely and trust much more in a SchH, than a sweet pet with a CGC or an obedience title. Why??? Because my drivey, behaved, trained and mentally sound dogs… (but not roaring dogs, which has nothing to do with SchH prospects nor SchH at all… but the contrary ) have proved they can handle stress in a proper way.

However Thris… when you state you know SchH dogs, who can’t pass a CGC or “simple” obedience and you have (only) seen a FEW good SchH dogs, I do think you hang out with the wrong and uneducated regarding working dogs and especially SchH. I think you are in bad company (so to speak!) or you simply just don’t know what you are talking about!!!