Bark & Hold Discussion

[blackandtan]

I was hoping to open up a discussion about training for the bark and hold.

Goal: to have the dog start barking immediately in the blind with intensity

Problem: Dogs (multiple dogs from our club) hesitate for a second beore starting to bark. One dog at the trail didn't bark (never seen that before on this dog before as he always barks in training)

Suspected Problems: Prior to trial, dogs were trained in defense. If dog did not start barking right away and intensely, they would get a couple shots to from the whip close to their feet or by their side. We all thought this was great during the training because all the dogs started barking very intensley and right away during training. The bark sounded different than the prey drive barking and the dogs all looked so good in training. Even the way their ears set was different, the way they moved while barking. They looked like they wanted to rip someone's head off, just from their bark. None of the dogs got "dirtier" or anything like that. Their barks were more uniform and consistant and had more of an intense rythem to it. And it was different breeds Rott, GSD, & American Bulldog. Also before doing the blind work, dogs were "pumped up" held back and the decoy would whip toward the feets and get the dogs all riled up and then go into the blind.

However it seemed that in a trial there is no one cracking a whip, no talking, no pumping up your dog. The decoy is motionless. So I theorize that the dogs were waiting for the decoy to do something (ie crack the whip) like in training, and when they decoy was there, motionless, the dogs were waiting for the cues (whip snapping or people giving commands, etc.

Going forward: In our training now, dog runs into the blind and the decoy (and sometimes the handler....which concerns me) calmy gives out commands (ie gieblaut). If the dog does not start barking right away he is slowly and calmly pulled back by a line that is attached to a dead link on a fur saver. Then the decoy moves forward, then inches back into the blind while tension is kept on the dogs. Decoy goes back in the blind and dog is released.

Concerns: There seems to be a lot of verbal cues still. If you have to keep telling your dog to Gieblaut, what happens on trial day. A verbal cue still seems like a cue to me and there are no cues in the blind on trial day. But then again, I guess you have to start somewhere then wean the dog off? But

I also think this is a problem WE created with training. Our dog didnt always have this problem, nor did the other dogs (3 dogs) in other trials. But on trial day, all the dogs had a barking issue in the blind.

Our issue was the least severe. it wasn't even noted in the critique. The only reason I noticed it was from reviewing the video and saying to myself "he didnt do that before" and now I am fixated on it. its less than a 1 second delay.

Any comments or even completely different approaches or theories would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[blackandtan]

I posted a 1.3 meg video of the Bark & Hold of my boy during the trial so you can see what I am talking about

Bark and Hold

If you compare it to the bark and hold at the Millnniums Wettkampf, it doesnt seem as good. Although I do like the intensity better than the Millenniums Bark & Hold.

I am proud though of the fact that both bark and holds were over 30 seconds! (34 to be exact) Seems like they only make the Sheperds go for the required 20 seconds at these things . Seems like the Rotts always get a harder deal at the USA trials


The judge DID say that the bark could have been faster in the critique. But I think that these USA trial judges are too used to Shepherds ;)

[BostonRott]

First, the B&H should never be taught in the blind. Secondly, if the dog needs to be pumped up, then he doesn't understand the game. The decoy should do NOTHING, the dog needs to initiate the game with barking. NO barking = no bite. Whips, banging on the dogs ribs, etc.......crap in my opinion. And you're right, there shouldn't be a verbal cue.

Froli knew from the time she was a young puppy that if she barked, she got what she wanted. I will never forget the day that I was upstairs and heard very loud, insistant barking downstairs. I came down to find Froli sitting, barking up at the mantle (over the fireplace) very intensely. I had left a few pieces of cheese up there from some earlier obedience work. She was 5 months old and KNEW how to initiate the game. Puppies can easily be taught to bark for toys, balls, tugs, etc. It easily transfers later to the bark & hold.

Another point: I hate dogs that bark at the sleeve. I want to see the dog up over the sleeve, making hard eye contact with the helper. I want to see a dog who will B/H a helper with no sleeve.

Bernhard Flinks makes an interesting point: why should a dog bark in prey? How does barking at rabbits make them easier to catch??

[blackandtan]

It not the whole B&H routine we are trying to teach. Just how to make it better.

I agree that the decoy is motionless in the blind on trial day, but during training there must be ways where people are "particpating"...helping the dog along (during training) so that he can do it on his own with a motionless decoy on trial day. I guess thats the info I am after and what techniques are techniques that can will not get the dog reliant on them during trial day.

There has been posts on here on overviews of drives in a dog. I am familiar with what a lot of drives are, but I guess I am not as famiar with how they all apply and work together in the B&H and how to recognize and capitalize on them. A lot of the times, the drives are explained, but not discussed as they apply to specific situations.

Now if Froli was barking for a piece of cheese, I am guessing that that was food or prey drive. Unless it was a real threatening piece of cheese. Maybe Limburger? If she is now barking at the helper regardless of the sleeve, thats a whole different kind of drive. That transition didn't happen overnight, nor did it happen with the helper/handler/trainers doing "nothing" (during training) like they do in a trial. All that stuff in between is the stuff I am looking for ;)

I also believe a dog should not be barking at the sleeve and should be barking at the helper. Our dog will bark at the helper even if the sleeve is on the floor. But I think one of the decoys we worked with did too much of the whipping, agitating stuff that during training made the dog do this and look incredible during training, but may have caused some problems for the actual trial. Who knows, our dog is not even 3 year old yet and it could be that he is too young, or it could be that we should have introduce a different training technique along side that one. Or maybe we shouldnt make such a big deal about this.

I don't expect to learn it all in a a few posts on this board, but I thought it would be interesting to get some insights and/or varied opinions. If anything, just to learn about drives in specific aspects of the SchH routines.

[Judi W]

The way I've always seen this taught, is that regardless of training or trial, the dog doesn't bite a motionless helper. Initially, the smallest bark or sound has the helper move and the dog is rewarded with the bite. That time period is extended as the dog realizes that it is the bark that gets the helper to move, and yes, they are barking at the helper because they want that helper to "do" something. I've seen some dogs revved up on a tie out this way in early training, but never by the time one gets to blind work.

In any kind of training, not just this, one must always have a picture of what the final goal is and see that the picture being formed in the dog's mind is compatible. There is a little movie playing in the mind as to what causes what and when that is not compatible with the final goal, then you have to go back, erase what is happening and re-establish the process. This takes longer than if it were not scrambled in the first place.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by blackandtan
helping the dog along (during training) so that he can do it on his own with a motionless decoy on trial day. I guess thats the info I am after and what techniques are techniques that can will not get the dog reliant on them during trial day.

[SIZE=4

the helper in the blind on training should always be motionionles any buildup or whip cracking should be only done outide the blind if your dog is low or not intense enough on drive to get him flying in the blind[/size]


Now if Froli was barking for a piece of cheese, I am guessing that that was food or prey drive. Unless it was a real threatening piece of cheese. Maybe Limburger? If she is now barking at the helper regardless of the sleeve, thats a whole different kind of drive. That transition didn't happen overnight, nor did it happen with the helper/handler/trainers doing "nothing" (during training) like they do in a trial. All that stuff in between is the stuff I am looking for ;)

to have a dog that looks in the eyes of the helper and not the sleeves takes a dog that has been worked properly through all the drives prey/defense/fight the dog must play the game correctly before the blind work begins and if they are worked in an unbalanced fashion (one drive more than others) there mind is not clear enough to follow through, in your 1st post you said the dog was trained in defense well there ya go he runs into the blind because for him its simply obediance the he is not intense because your helpers have been pumping them up in the blinds and he waits for that to get defensive,, where as if the training was done correctly he should be flying to the blind because of intense prey drive,, comes in helper motionless he should switch to fight drive by barking he is trying to initiate the fight once he does this correctly the helper rewards the dog by a challenge then moving out giving the dog a bite

I think one of the decoys we worked with did too much of the whipping, agitating stuff that during training made the dog do this and look incredible during training, but may have caused some problems for the actual trial.

here is the importance of haveing experianced decoys did they not know that in a trail that the helpers would not be pumping them up in the blind and did they not think that if during training that if they disd pump them in the blind did they actuaklly think the dog wouldnt wait for that on trial day??



Who knows, our dog is not even 3 year old yet and it could be that he is too young, or it could be that we should have introduce a different training technique along side that one. Or maybe we shouldnt make such a big deal about this.

this training should have started from the second you got your pup the play and the fighting only gets going from day one if he initiates it by barking.. back up your training and instill this

I don't expect to learn it all in a a few posts on this board, but I thought it would be interesting to get some insights and/or varied opinions. If anything, just to learn about drives in specific aspects of the SchH routines.

here is an important aspect i may be wrong but im assuming from several of your posts and watching the vids that you train mainly for the task at hand and are not training the whole dog for example even though they took the attack out of the blind away in trials do you still keep the attack out of the blind incorporated in your training???? we do even though the dog doesnt do that in trial it gives the dog something to want while in the blind then when he initiates the fight and doesnt get what he wants in the trial with no escape(which put a lot of defense in the dog) it pumps him further... i would go back and this dog gets nothing no play no bites unless he initiates the fight, back tie him have the helper stand like statues when he barks play then up the ante all the way up till the type of barking you want initiates movemant and keep training the escape and drive out of the blind because why should the dog do the intwense bark and hold if he is only going to be put back in ob and healed away give him the reward of the fight and on trial day when that doesnt come ,,he will follow his ob when you walk him out of the blind

think of the conflict your helper is putting these dogs in

I think one of the decoys we worked with did too much of the whipping, agitating stuff that during training made the dog do this and look incredible during training, but may have caused some problems for the actual trial.

your dog if training was done correctly knows that he shouldnt bite the helper in the blind but yet your helper is puting defense on the dog by moving and whipping but yet you are expecting the dog not to bite when once the helper move he really should be able to bite...

[BostonRott]

Judi, you got it! (per usual ) Dogs must be started from Day 1 to understand that they initiate the game. Our helper does not use whips until MUCH later in training, a new dog won't see one for years. The dog must bring the fight to the game, not sit around and wait to be antagonized by the whip. Bark = mvmt = bite is basically what it comes down to, and yes, the helper IS motionless in the blind during training. None of that making prey attraction with the sleeve while the handler holds the dog back.

Also, it is not any movement that = bite, it is threatening movement. We used to do an exercise where Kenny would work outside the blind, but back up, or basically wander around backwards with the dog in a B/H. There was no threat presented, no bite allowed. The dog would just maintain that tight B/H in the pocket. Another exercise we worked on to improve obedience was free heeling with the helper on the field and walking back and forth past him. Again, the helper is moving around, but no bites are allowed.

As to barking without a sleeve, it's all what's in your dog's heart. Some are very convincing at it because they truly want the fight, (the man) and could care less about the sleeve, others........well, they like the sleeve game. Interesting test: put the dog on a long line, helper is out of reach working the dog like a young dog: building attraction. Then have the helper suddenly toss the sleeve away. Where does the dog's focus go? Most will look to the sleeve, some will return from it, others will just focus their attention/barking on the sleeve. A very few will not even blink and never waver focus from the helper. Tells you a lot about what's in a dog's heart and what their focus in training is.

Froli barking at the cheese as a young puppy was not prey drive. What prey attraction does a lump of cheese present? Going back to Bernhard's question, what function would barking at prey serve? "I'm going to bark at this rabbit and it will come to me!" Doubt it. Barking is not a prey drive action. It comes from either frustration or aggression. Most dogs, it is frustration. I have a dog who does not bark out of frustration. She is one of the most confident dogs many have ever met and seems to have endlessly long nerve. When her B/H is taught (if my helper is ever available on a regular basis again ), it will have to be done out of active aggression. It's a very serious undertaking, a rare one and something that has to be done right the first time, or someone's gonna get bit (not me!). This is not the same as doing civil work, but it is teaching her to basically show aggression to a passive subject and that MUST be done correctly. I will not even get into it here, it's not an internet subject.

Another way to really blow a sleeve-dog's mind is to present a helper with two sleeves. HOLY COW! Some don't know what to do with it, others will work through it fine. The dog who truly wants the fight simply barks up over both of them.

Remember this above all else in SchH training: you can teach many behaviours, but under stress (read: trial conditions), the dog will revert back to what it truly is and you may see behaviours that aren't as common in training (when things are more calm, including the handler's nerves).

Froli was a girl who loved the fight. I took her to Philly for her SchH2 and we took the field without ever having warmed up on the field or the helper having worked her. I warned the helper (Mark Stathopolus, used to handle Natl level dog Ecks) that she would come right in his face. Mark is 6'3" and probably had heard that one before. Her first two barks (before I was called into the blind by the judge) were literally bark/clack an inch from his nose. That's just who she was, always wanting to bully new helpers and see if she could make 'em flinch. I miss that girlie!

[Mick Trainer]

I have not fully read the other replies so sorry if I recap. All of what I write here is done so with the premise that the dog is the temperament type to handle such work.

I see from the video and from your description a few problems existing within the hold and bark which, as you have said, innitate from the training or more importantly incorrect training of the dog. However I doubt it will be so easy to simply fix a hole here and would strong encourage you to take a large step back and re-train the H&B from stratch if you truly wish to cure this problem. The problem with the not barking straight away is created in three forms here by firstly not enough intensity of drive and also by coming into the blind unsure and also a conditioned responce about being called away from the blind on the first search. To help better understand this I will go into what I do and why to better illustrate what I am searching for and what I see as causing problems here.

When I am first going to teach the H&B I firstly want the dog showing a good firm grip and a huge amount of drive etc to get onto the field and to work. In the vast majority of dogs this will mean that the dog is functioning in it's predatory drive. I wish to see the dog is totaly forward movement to the point of being highly forging, showing very comfortable typography and in a highly exitable and aroused state. The dog should be barking upon it's entry onto the field and is not to be commanded to cease in any way. At this time I will simply start to train the out (if it has not already been done) by going sleeve to sleeve with the dog teaching it to hold predatory arousal whilst it trasfers from sleeve to sleeve. Once the dog will out from a dead sleeve to a live one quickly and hold drive I simply start moving away so that the dog cannot reach the sleeve and then I go dead. Upon bark I move and give bite same as is done in very early stages of foundation work. All at this time in prey. In time the dog learn to out upon command cleanly and wait for movement. At this time I am happy for rythmical prey barking. Once I have this I move on.

Once I have a good "out" and the dog understanding barking and waiting I start to get the dog to give eye contact before it gets a bite. This normally only takes a few sessions. Once the dog is understanding this I now move to were I am seeking intensity in the H&B and I do this not through changing drives but through frustration and loading of the dog. Whilst in the vast majority of bite training viewing biting to occur in prey/defence and fight (if you like that term) will be enough to understand what it is we are doing and seeking from a dog, however when training for a truly intense H&B I find it a little simplistic and that a good helper will know that aggression can truly exist and occur in more than simply the perception of threat or fight drive and that one of the great producers of aggression within a dog is frustration and that the threshold to frustration levels can be lowered by loading of a dog an in-turn the lack of movement from the helper and compliance to a command. We can all, I believe, easily equate this to ourselves and how our frustration levels if lifted can lead to a lower threshold to an aggressive responce to even someone we love. For me whilst we opperate clearly on a higher level to the though patterns and learning principles of dogs that it is nieve to believe that the same frustration will not lead to a similar responce in the dog.

So how do I do this? Well whilst there will be some variance depending upon the individual dog being trained I usually start with building frustration and loading upon the dog not in the H&B but in a fixed position such as a drop etc. I do this by putting the dog into a conflicted situation and putting many different forms of pressure that can be confusing to the dog. For instance I will normally start with putting the dog into a drop with the handler right beside it. I will then get right up in it's face doing prey movements, banging the sleeve and hissing etc to get the dog truly aroused. Now remembering that the dog is already trained in holding a drop and is good at this exercise and is on a pinch collar (Once you have worked a dog with this type of technique it is not often trained upon it for OB work unless you are looking to increase intensity a lot as the dog will soon make an association that a correction from the pinch is a trigger to arousal and often aggression) I will get the handler to keep repeating their drop command and even though the dog is not breaking the dog is receiving low level corrections. The abundance of stimuli and the confusion upon the corrections will lead to the dog loading and becoming high aroused. When I see that the dog has become highly aggitated and is ready to burst (think of a big spring being turned high and higher) I will move rapidly away from the dog I get the owner to give the command. The dog will run and hit very hard as a rule. Now it is important that the helper can read the dog has holding for too long can shut the dog down. This exercise has two beneifts. One is it teaches the dog to fire frustration at the helper and it builds a truly solid off lead.

Now once I have a dog that can build frustration I will start to transfer this onto the H&B. Now as a rule again I will start by agitating the dog (not in the blind) and not allowing it a bite. I move to where I will work the dog get the handler to send the dog in. At this time I am not concerned if the dog takes a dirty bite. Now the owner is to give the out command and wait. I will give no responce if the dog hold on but most know the out well and will let go but I do not want a correction if they do not at this stage (I will fix this later if it presents a problem and the use then of a correction will also load the dog further but most of the time it is not necessary as the dog has learnt to out and hold drive). Once the dog is outed the handler is a praise the dog and give it a good hard pet on the rear. Then I get the handler to keep repeating the H&B command giving slight corrections once again upon the dog. The dog now knows that it must gain eye contact to get a bite. Now with the mild corrections the dog will start to load again and I wait until the dog not only seeks eye contact but it gives an aggressive responce, then I gove it the bite. Once I have it a few times of course the handler corrections cease and the time the dog must show this responce builds. The dog in time will succesfully aproximate and after a very short time the dog will show this responce to get a bite in all H&B situtations. The dog if originally conditioned correctly will out cleanly and go straight back into a very intense H&B. The dog is not working truly in either prey or defence but it shows the intensity in the bark of defence but the forward movement and strength of prey.

In all this however the dog must learn that it is it that initiates the responce from em and not the other way around. it must aproximate that it is the alteration of it's behavior that changes my responce to it. This is hardly new to any helper but shows the importance of timing in that the helper must alter his/her movement as soon as the behavior alters. Once the dog has made this link then the time can be built until movement is given thus again having the dog succesfully aproximate how it must behave.

Now in a number of situations another behavior will present that people see as bad and stop this type of training. Due to the high level of arousal that a dog feels due to the loading and frustration some may start to take dirty bites and not wish to out quite so quickly. Now once agian pointing out that the dog must have known the "out" previously the dog can be corrected for either of these and due to the fact that it now is conditioned to loading upon the pinch collar this will only gain greater loading and more intensity. This is a problem easily cleaned up and one that can lead to even greater results.

I do not like a number of the modern PS or SchH H&B that put the dog into defence that even though whilst the dog will do the exercise it shows true insecurity and even in the worst cases avoidance barking. Defensive work can build intensity all all forms of bite work but it can also create insecuity in the dog and thus reduce true intensity as it appears to have done here.

Now whilst it is the case that the dog must be called away from the H&B in the trial this is not the way in which I practice such an exercise in the majority of cases. If the dog is conditioned to think it will be called away in such circumstances then it will soon loose intensity for the H&B. If you have a sound recall to heal then there is no lead to constantly practice this when preparing for a trial. If the dog does it then leave the dog to think nearly all H&B end in a bite. It is clear that the first dog in the video's has too much attention placed upon the handler waiting for the recall command and it has already started to return to the handler upon the first letter leaving the handler mouth. This is good for the recall but poor for the H&B.

On another point if you are using drive/predatory behavior in either bite work or Ob (and lets face it who isn't now days?) then one your dog is conditioned to being in drive when being worked the worst thing you can do is play and work your dog up before a trial. Why you may ask? The more a dog is triggered into drive by the stimulus triggers present upon trials or training but the longer that drive goes unsatisfied (as long as the dog has been conditioned to it coming if it performs long enough) the higher levels of arousal the dog feel and the more intensity it will show. Watch any truly great helper with his truly great dog before a big trial. He will stand dead still and give the dog nothing before he enters the ring. By the time the dog hits the field it is bursting out of it's skin ready to rock and roll.

I hope that this makes sence to all and it helpful. I feel that I have left much out but have not the time to write more now.

Mick.

[blackandtan]

Mick,

that was exactly what I was looking for. The unfortunate thing about training in a club environement is that helpers change and different helpers bring their own "style". We are currently working with many of the methods you discussed.

As a side note, I don't know if you knew this, but the videos were actual trial videos and not training videos. The millneiums one was when he was 29 months and the other one was just a few weeks ago. I didn't know if that mattered (ie knowing that the video wasnt illustrative of how we train, rather the result of some mistakes we may have made)

My "uncomfortablenes" was not being so familiar with the concepts being used and haveing a totaly understanding. So I was unsure about the loading up before entering the blind, the "pops" or corrections to enourage the dog to bark, and the verbal commands being used that I saw as a "crutch".

Although not 100% identical to every aspect you described, we are basically doing most of the things you are outlining and now I understand it a little more.

I appreciate you spending the time to discuss all of this. A lot of the decoys probbaly know all of this, but its often times a little hard to pull them away and occupy all their time to explain it. Not to mention a lot of these guys may "know" it, but may not now exactly how to explain it.

I am going to print out your post and make copies and pass it out to our club members because I think its really good reading. Even if you are not having these exact same problems.

Thanks again for not only the knowledge you shared of the B&H, but of drives in general!