Is it critical that he carry the sleeve?

[Mattweiser]

I am cuurently doing basic bitework training with my boy (19 months). We have been working him since about 11 months. Exclusivly prey motivation for the first 4 months then gradually eased into a little pressure. He is doing great. One problem

Once he "wins" he does not carry the sleeve very long..

If I recall him, he will spit it out at my feet (I assume he is giving it to me)

If he is on leash and I run him in a circle he will sometimes carry sometimes not

If I lead him off field, he will spit it out at the edge of the training field.

have any of you experienced this?
is it a problem?

I only ask because all the other dogs in my club carry to excess

thanks in advance
-Matt

[German Vanegas]

The carry of the sleeve is not so critical. In fact, dogs that keep carrying the sleeve, all they want to do is to stop at one point and start chewing it! These are high prey driven dogs. From what you described, your dog is demonstrating to have defense drive. A balancing of prey and defense drives are the key for a real protection dog. Your boy sounds very promising ;)

[valdes43]

I'm no expert but have you tried tapping the sleeve while he's carrying it. Dead prey is no fun. ;)

[czechrott]

Carrying the sleeve while running in a circular motion is an exercise made popular by Helmut Raiser. The importance of the exercise has been overblown, in my opinion.

The value of the exercise is to keep a calm, firm grip on the sleeve. Many bite problems in dogs can be attributed to this basic fundamental error. The key to making the exercise work is having the dog highly motivated to have the sleeve. If the dog tries to drop the sleeve to mouth it, he'll lose it. I like the exercise because it also helps to calm nervous dogs, by petting and talking softly while the sleeve is in the mouth.

But, many clubs place too much importance on this exercise. Some dogs are "Civil" in nature, and look at the sleeve as an "obsticle" to the person. Those dogs tend to spit out the sleeve, and direct their attention back at the helper. With dogs like that, it is better to keep the dog on the sleeve longer, and place heavy back pressure to help keep the grip firm & full. Continued attempts at making the dog carry the sleeve can take the focus away from what is important.

If your dog is more "Prey" oriented, then this exercise has far more value, and should be continued. You mentioned that if you "Recall the dog to you", he will drop it at your feet. I would caution against doing any form of obedience this early on in bite training. Your dog at this point should not be that obedient. He should only hear support & praise from you, and should be on the wild side.

[Mattweiser]

First of all, thank you all for your responses

German, I hope you are right in regards to his defense drive. Since my boy is a rescue (got him at 5 months, and is unregistered) his real potential is still a complete mystery to me, but he does show potential....

Valdez, I have tried the taping, and it works, but only as long as the taping continues.. as soon as the prey "dies", he is done with it...

Czechrott, I understand your point, and yes from what I can tell, my trainer does follow "Der Schutzhund" methodology to a point. We do use the back pressure while he is on the sleeve, and his bites are full and strong... As for the obedience, I had already taught him that before I decided to try PP.... it is not a true recall, we do a moderate sendout (15-20 feet) after he wins, I simply say his name and he brings the sleeve directly to me.. I understand your point, and have deffinatly read many posts and books against early obedience, but as I said, I did it before I knew better, so we are just trying to make the best of it.

-Matt

[Urbans]

What are you training your dog for personal protection or schutzhund ?

[Mattweiser]

PP...

to be more honest, basic bitework, with an emphasis leaning more towards PP/Real-world

-Matt

[Urbans]

If PP is your goal I agree 100% with German(SURPRISE ;))

Remember, Rieser book was written with an eye towards producing a top level schutzhund, GSD. Many of the concepts cross over, some don't. If your not training SCH and you are training a rott fewer things apply.

One word of caution, alot rotties tend to mature into a dogs with quite sufficient fight and aggression. Don't push a young dog to hard in that direction, he may go that way on his own. If he does go that way on his own he will feel far more confident and powerful.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Urbans:
If PP is your goal I agree 100% with German(SURPRISE ;))

I am marking this day on my calendar! :D

[German Vanegas]

Matt,
I suspected that you were interested in PP, more so than just training to "bite the sleeve" :)

[German Vanegas]

Indeed, Helmut Raiser ("Der Schutzhund") is the promoter of the dog carrying the sleeve in circles after the bite, which is the reward for the high prey driven dog. However, allowing the dog to keep the sleeve as a "trophy" for too long, can easily make the dog to get locked in prey or become "sleeve happy" only. For the strong civil dog the sleeve may become an obstacle, as czechrott pointed out, since this type of dog is more defense oriented and less interested in just biting the sleeve.

Bear in mind though, that the ideal protection dog has to have balanced prey and defense drives. A dog with a strong defense drive, and little or no prey, can become overly aggressive.

[ February 28, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[WorkinDogz]

I agree with you Czech.

I encourage my dogs to carry the sleeve...but one of them would rather bring the helpers arm to the sleeve than bring the sleeve to the helper. For her; I really try to at least have her carry the sleeve off of the field.

[Mattweiser]

Remember, Rieser book was written with an eye towards producing a top level schutzhund, GSD. Many of the concepts cross over, some don't. If your not training SCH and you are training a rott fewer things apply.

I agree completely. The fact that he (Helmut) is exposing his dogs to heavy stress at 10-12 months is enough to point out differences....

One word of caution, alot rotties tend to mature into a dogs with quite sufficient fight and aggression. Don't push a young dog to hard in that direction, he may go that way on his own. If he does go that way on his own he will feel far more confident and powerful

again, I agree completely... which is why I was thinking that encouraging a little more Prey, to mix with the fight and defense that I am hoping will come, would make him more well-rounded...

He is deffinatly showing me the begining of his defense (on his own mostly)... I am just trying to look down the road a bit

-Matt

[czechrott]

In regards to carrying the sleeve, Dr. Raiser felt this exercise was good to fix a problem. It was not developed to produce a top level schutzhund dog.

Whether it be Schutzhund, or PP, the best dogs have a very full, hard bite. Remember, schutzhund was developed to test the many traits necessary in a working dog for the purpose of reproduction. PP is very focused on fewer traits.

I would work your dog with a balance, especially at his age. A big difference between Rotties and GSD's come in the time frame of 18 to 24 months of age. GSD's are more mature at this age. They might look & act like an adult, but a rotty is still immature at this age. Pressure in defense can cause training problems. Training cannot change genetics. Your dog is what he is. As a trainer, your job is to get the most out of him keeping as many tools in your tool box as you can.

If your dog is defensive naturally, then doing prey work will not change it. Doing prey work MAY help to get the most out of him, by calming the grip, or keeping him from getting overloaded.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by czechrott:
... Pressure in defense can cause training problems. Training cannot change genetics. Your dog is what he is. As a trainer, your job is to get the most out of him keeping as many tools in your tool box as you can.

If your dog is defensive naturally, then doing prey work will not change it. Doing prey work MAY help to get the most out of him, by calming the grip, or keeping him from getting overloaded.

I agree.