American Street Ring

[LUIZ GUSTAVO]

Hello Burns,
The guy that created this sport is Ted Hoppe , he is a very nice man. Even tough German already gave you the soul of the ASR : train dogs for real life encounters ,go to their site ,and there are explanations of what ASR is all about ,with all the rules and detailed exercises.I wish there were more rottweilers doing this type of sport. If i were in America i would definetely chose ASR over Sch.

their site is : http://www.americanstreetring.com/


Abraco
LUIZ GUSTAVO

[German Vanegas]

Again, Schutzhund's regulations (particularly the insertion of the most recent ones) makes it an exhibition dog sport. The obedience part demonstrates control. Tracking proves the basics for potential real life tracking. And the protection test is a show. Yes, a show... because many of those schH dogs are trained by exploiting the dog's prey drive! Albeit, most schutzhund enthusiasts want to see it as "fight drive". However the definition of fight drive is more complex than just the ability to "bite the helper's sleeve". The true is that the protection testing in schutzhund is highly choreographed and unrealistic.

In the other hand, in the American Street Ring the format is more realistic. The obedience drills demonstrates control and the protection phase test a dog for real courage and fearless responses to intense scenarios, in which the dog is tested beyond the limitations of Schutzhund. Basically, this is about sport v. real life. You make you choice depending upon the kind of dog you have ;)

[rottweiler_fancier]

Originally posted by German Vanegas:
Yes, a show... because many of those schH dogs are trained by exploiting the dog's prey drive! Albeit, most schutzhund enthusiasts want to see it as "fight drive". However the definition of fight drive is more complex than just the ability to "bite the helper's sleeve". The true is that the protection testing in schutzhund is highly choreographed and unrealistic.

In the other hand, in the American Street Ring the format is more realistic.

Now I've heard Shutzhund doesn't give a realistic idea of fight drive...how does the test in IPO compare to the ASR as far as difficulty, realistic, etc?

[LucyJ]

Can anyone give some more information on which types of dogs should enter into either of the two different programs? This is really interesting and I'd like to know more. Thanks.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by rottweiler_fancier:
Now I've heard Shutzhund doesn't give a realistic idea of fight drive...how does the test in IPO compare to the ASR as far as difficulty, realistic, etc?

Learn the rules and compare them ;)
http://www.americanstreetring.com/rules.htm

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by LucyJ:
Can anyone give some more information on which types of dogs should enter into either of the two different programs? This is really interesting and I'd like to know more. Thanks.

Dogs elegible for sport protection and/or real life protection have to come from lines that have ancestors titled in protection arenas. The necessary drives will vary from line to line and individual dog to individual dog.

[Mattweiser]

German,

I have been following this list for about 6 months now. I would bet that if you had a quarter for every time that you have reminded people about real life vs. sport, you would have a fairly sizable portfolio ;) :D ;)
-Matt

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mattweiser:
German,

I have been following this list for about 6 months now. I would bet that if you had a quarter for every time that you have reminded people about real life vs. sport, you would have a fairly sizable portfolio ;) :D ;)
-Matt

That is IF. However, I get no money at all from posting in this wonderful forum. If I would, I would be rich ;) :D

[Urbans]

With the exception of the "civil" portion, what makes ASR any more real than the ring sports or KNPV? And the obedience is FAR less demanding.

What I guess what I am saying is that all of the protection dog sports (ASR, NAPD, Pro-Sports) are just that, SPORTS. Just because a dog barks at a decoy witout a suit does not make him "real". A mediocre trainer can easily train a prey drivin dog to pass all of these test.

A friend of mine, who is a french ring guy, said it best. "Well, lite-beer sells, why not ringsports-lite?

[ February 26, 2001: Message edited by: Urbans ]

[Mattweiser]

Urbans,

I will not be as assuming to say that it is not possible to do what you said and train a dog in prey to pass such "reality based" training programs....

BUT, that its the intent behind these organizations. To devise a training and testing method, that will separate sport dogs from real-life dogs.

This is in no way meant to degrade or disparage a sport dog, they are some of the most well-trained and well-behaved dogs in the world... Not to mention, my trainer has a Shepperd/Rott mix that is completely "prey-locked", but I would never consider threatening this dog w/o a barrel sleeve at least... this dog has an incredible prey drive with a hint of fight drive (plus very hard).....

-Matt

[Mattweiser]

and Urbans,

I would like to think that it takes more than a mediocre trainer to prey train a dog to pass street rules :) but I do agree that it could be possible

-Matt

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mattweiser:
Urbans,

I will not be as assuming to say that it is not possible to do what you said and train a dog in prey to pass such "reality based" training programs....

BUT, that its the intent behind these organizations. To devise a training and testing method, that will separate sport dogs from real-life dogs.

This is in no way meant to degrade or disparage a sport dog, they are some of the most well-trained and well-behaved dogs in the world... Not to mention, my trainer has a Shepperd/Rott mix that is completely "prey-locked", but I would never consider threatening this dog w/o a barrel sleeve at least... this dog has an incredible prey drive with a hint of fight drive (plus very hard).....

-Matt

I concur entirely. Great response Matt! :)

Now Urbans, do you think that the Schutzhund format competition is more realistic than the American Street Ring and the other rings you mentioned?... Albeit a dog can be trained to respond in prey drive only, which makes the dog unsuitable for real protection work,it is also easy to spot a prey driven dog and/or a prey-locked dog. A few of us also know about canine aggression and what real civil protection and guard work are all about ;)

[Urbans]

Matt, good post.

I agree that the intent of these groups is a good one. I just don't feel that the intent has reached the field.

Let's look at the dogs that win these events. The majority of them where trained in other dog sports prior to being entered in these competitions.

Also, prey dogs passing and winning these events does happen. One very successful person I know of openly admits her dog is nothing but a "big prey monster".

German

I don't belive that schutzhund is a better test. But as you said you can easily spot a prey locked dog. If this is so then you should have no problem spoting a civil or prey dog be it on a sport field or street.

I just think that the people on the board that are not very experienced and do not have a strong grasp of the meaning of drives, need to know that no matter what type of competition you see a dog in you never really know what is really going on. If there are rules, you can train around them.

[Urbans]

Oh yeah...

Mattweiser welcome to the board. I look forward to reading your posts.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Urbans:
German

I don't belive that schutzhund is a better test. But as you said you can easily spot a prey locked dog. If this is so then you should have no problem spoting a civil or prey dog be it on a sport field or street.

Well, right there we both agree that:

-schutzhund is not a better (realistic) test,

-that prey driven dogs are easy to spot by a person with true knowledge in canine aggression and civil protection & guard work,

-And that you can train around a competition format to make a prey driven dog to look like a personal protection dog, when in fact is not.

Nevertheless, the question to you still remains, what competition test is more realistic: Schutzhund or American Steet Ring? I think American Street Ring ;)