American Street Ring

[Urbans]

Originally posted by Mattweiser:
Urbans,

one aspect of Schutzhund rules that I have always had an issue with:

If a dog is growling and countering while on the sleeve it is considered to be sharp... I consider that fighting, as long as the bite is full and firm, I like that (in my dog)


-Matt

Sorry Matt this is NOT a rule and NEVER has been a rule. If you ever get a chance to to see dogs like Tom Leefdalhof(sp?)GSD or Rocky vom Hause Welz,GSD, two of the best SCH dogs in the world, you will learn quite quickly that this is not a rule. Helper Chris Carr said, that when trying to drive Tom it felt like his spine was being ripped out. Are any other rules that you feel "water down" schutzhund?

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Urbans:
Which representatives are you referring? I would like to contact them so I don't have to rely on hearsay.

Did you read my prior post about why the term hundessport was coined?

Are you really that surprise Urbans? Ask around ;)

I did read your post, and hundesport literally translates "dog sport", while schutzhund translates "protection dog". So you tell me, which one of the two do you think Capt. Von Stephanitz had in mind?

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mattweiser:

If a dog is growling and countering while on the sleeve it is considered to be sharp... I consider that fighting, as long as the bite is full and firm, I like that (in my dog)

It seems to me, a growling countering rott would be a heck-of-a-lot harder to deal with than a limp, silent GSD if they were both attached to your body

Urbans,
That is not so much a rule but is a general opinion from most schH enthusiasts and most renown schH judges, while personal protection dog specialists disagree with such believe. You also seem to agree that such behavior is not a sign of insecurity or nervouness.

[Urbans]

Originally posted by German Vanegas:
Are you really that surprise Urbans? Ask around ;)

I don't need to ask around, I am around.

Look, you guys the reason I am pressing you so hard on this stuff is because what you are saying is the typical junk, wrapped in miconception, often heard about schutzhund. Some people on this board have never seen schutzhund and it is unfair to them to have a bunch of unfounded junk floating around. Personally I love the sport, shortcomings and all.

You have yet to answer, what specific rules have "watered down" schutzhund. Why not answer in a direct fashion? You guys threw this out as a fact. Facts can be backed up.

[ March 02, 2001: Message edited by: Urbans ]

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Urbans:
I don't need to ask around, I am around.

Look, you guys the reason I am pressing you so hard on this stuff is because what you are saying is the typical junk, wrapped in miconception, often heard about schutzhund. Some people on this board have never seen schutzhund and it is unfair to them to have a bunch of unfounded junk floating around. Personally I love the sport, shortcomings and all.

Calm down Urbans. In prior statements, about the dog sport of schutzhund, I have clearly said, many times, that I AM NOT AGAINST SCHUTZHUND. I LIKE SCHUTZHUND AND HAVE NOTHING BUT RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN IT! However, it seems like since you are an "insider", you are the one that knows "the facts" and the rest of us, "outsiders", don't know anything. Well, that's a little pretentious, don't you think? Therefore, for you to accuse us (Matt and I) of spreading "junk", only shows your one sided biased opinion. Whether you believe it or not, I know that many schH experts are into promoting training in prey drive only; that schH experts call "insecure" a dog that growls while biting the decoy's sleeve (of course, if the dog bites in prey drive mode, he should not feel stressed at all!); and so forth and so on. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, and so am I.

As far as replying to questions, you ignored mine. So once again, here it goes: "I did read your post, and hundesport literally translates "dog sport", while schutzhund translates "protection dog". So you tell me, which one of the two do you think Capt. Von Stephanitz had in mind?"... and your answer is?... I guess you already answered. You said above, and I quote you: "Personally I love the sport, shortcomings and all". Indeed that is your prerrogative ;)

[ March 02, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[Rafael]

Hi,
I dont want to start a fight ,but i agree with Urban , every one that said that new rules have "watered down" schutzhund ,MUST say which rules are those and what has changed from its initial concept.Otherwise it is unfair to the sport and to people that want to learn about it. By the way , Schutzhund literally translates to guard dog not protection dog ,but i am sure the different names that you may call (hundsport or shcutzhund) won't make a dog better or worse.
Regards
Rafael

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Rafael:
Hi,
.By the way , Schutzhund literally translates to guard dog not protection dog

Sorry Rafael, but the German word Schutzhund literally tranlates to English as PROTECTION DOG. The German word for guard dog is Schutzen Sie Hund. Ich spreche genug Deutsch. Sprechen Sie ein Deutsch?

Anyway, do you believe that Capt. V. Stephanitz had in mind a schutzhund or a hundesport?... How can a schutzhund be considered a hundesport?... How can a dog be a reliable protection dog if it is trained in prey drive only?... What testing would you suggest to determine the true courage and fearlessness of a protection dog?... Well, I don't want to go on and on. You tell me ;)

Ich mag personlich furchtlose Hunde, die eine Person mit absoluter Entscheidung kampfen :)

[helga]

Easy, easy, easy does it!

[damp]

I will just repeat what my helper told me after the training to day.
He said:
[When I started as helper 20 years ago, it was NOT a problem if I did mistakes… the dogs would “answer” with hardness and fight. Nowadays, an experienced helper (with the right owner) is able to build up so much confidence in a dog, with a certain degree of prey drives, so the dog is able to pass a SchH, but in the same time an inexperienced helper can ruin the same dog in one training lesson.]
Two TOTALLY different types of dogs are able to pass the same test! I think this says something about most of “to days” Rottweilers; but also, if “to days” dogs shall have a chance to pass a SchH, the criteria for passing this test is watered down or at least changed.

In the other hand:
For the reason of “the dangerous dog” situation in Germany and what the consequences can be in the rest of EU, I don’t train SchH anymore… but the very similar IPO… International Prüfungs Ordnung... sound more political correct.

[Urbans]

Damp, I agree with your trainer but MAYBE for different reasons. I think training skills now, are at a far higher level than they where a decade or two ago. This does allow softer dogs to pass the test. But dogs today are tons more stable. That reaction of hardness and fight, to a correction, often resulted in a trip to the emergency room for the handler. NOT FUN! I know this first hand ;)

A few friends and I where watching videos last week. One of the tapes, I think, was the 1982 Bundessieger. Almost every dog had dirty guards, slow outs and lackluster obedience. The winner was Reiser, this preformance would not have put him in the top 10 today.

Has the sport changed? No,not really. If any thing, the rules that have been changed have made the sport harder.

Have the dogs changed? Some. There are tons of prey dogs passing. But there are also tons of dogs that fight drive and aggression.


Remember it's a three phase sport and in the obedience and tracking, without any reservations, I think todays dogs are better than ever.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by damp:
When I started as helper 20 years ago, it was NOT a problem if I did mistakes… the dogs would “answer” with hardness and fight. Nowadays, an experienced helper (with the right owner) is able to build up so much confidence in a dog, with a certain degree of prey drives, so the dog is able to pass a SchH, but in the same time an inexperienced helper can ruin the same dog in one training lesson.
Two TOTALLY different types of dogs are able to pass the same test! I think this says something about most of “to days” Rottweilers; but also, if “to days” dogs shall have a chance to pass a SchH, the criteria for passing this test is watered down or at least changed.

In the other hand:
For the reason of “the dangerous dog” situation in Germany and what the consequences can be in the rest of EU, I don’t train SchH anymore… but the very similar IPO… International Prüfungs Ordnung... sound more political correct.

;) :)

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Urbans:
[B...]I think training skills now, are at a far higher level than they where a decade or two ago. This does allow softer dogs to pass the test...

...A few friends and I where watching videos last week. One of the tapes, I think, was the 1982 Bundessieger. Almost every dog had dirty guards, slow outs and lackluster obedience. The winner was Reiser, this preformance would not have put him in the top 10 today...

...Have the dogs changed? Some. There are tons of prey dogs passing. But there are also tons of dogs that fight drive and aggression.


[/b]

I agree with all the above statements, with the exception that, allegedly, there are "tons of dogs with fight drive and aggression". I think those brave, courageous, tenacious type of dogs are hard to find or far in between. But then again, the notion of what level of aggression is needed for personal protection and police & military service, is quite different from the pure sport concept; again, where an intense prey driven dog can do "wonders" in a schutzhund trial, but may fail miserably in real life ;)

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Urbans:
Once again. What rules have "watered down" schutzhund?

Ask Matt. He stated that in one reply. I personally think that the term "watered down" refers to the many schH dogs locked in prey drive, due to such training promotion. The fact is that schH dogs with true fight drive are getting harder and harder to find, while schH prey driven dogs are everywhere! The name Hundesport is a sanitized politically correct term, trying to improve the public's perception and acceptance of the sport, since the word schutzhund literally translates protection dog, which is exactly what Capt. V. Stephanitz had in mind to test the utility of a dog in a working field, not in a sport arena ;)

[ March 03, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[Mattweiser]

Ok, guys... I have not been hiding. My wife rarely lets me on the computer during the weekend :o

Urbans,

I did not mean to start a fight, or upset anybody here... I was simply stating an opinion that I have formed in my very short-lived exposure to the world of dog sports

Urban's, you said that there has never been a rule about growling and countering dog's being considered sharp........

But Urbans whether there is a hard "rule" or not, things regarding a dog's temperment are completely at the judge's discretion. right?
some of the people that I train with have had their dog's lose points for doing just that......

Besides competition, isn't the BH test alone a little different than what Capt. Stephanitz devised?? I cannot recall the actual quote... but it is something along the lines of... distrust of strangers.... I am very quick to jump to the conclusion that if one of his (Capt Stephanitz) dogs was tied out, he was not w/in sight, and any of us walked w/in range... my guess is that we would regret it....
My point is not sharpness vs. calmness.. but that strange situations call for modified behavior.. again Urbans, I am not trying to disparage Schutzhund, you, or its many competitors... as I said much earlier on this thread I have nothing but respect for all of you.... I may even enter my boy in a SchH I trial.... please do not read into my words.... for 98% of dog sport enthusiasts Schutzhund is all the protection training they could ever need.........

[Mattweiser]

I am going to make one more quick analogy, then I am done....

let's use Martial Arts, since the results are similar... ( I am sure I am going to upset alot of the rest of you with this one.. but I think it is valid)

Tae Kwon Do, is a great style of martial arts, and anyone who has truly mastered it could easliy hold their own (if need be)...

However, as with everything else, it has also become somewhat "mainstream".. I have known a few 13 year-old boys that hold black belts... do you guys see my point?? again,I am not putting down that boy, for he has worked hard I am sure to acheive what he has... but is that belt a true measure of his hand-to-hand ability???

Does this mean that Tae Kwon Do is garbage? OF COURSE NOT.. but there is more to real-world ability than titles.....

If I have offended anybody, I sincerely appologize


-Matt