rottie work ability, is this bull or true.

[barlo8]

Dogz One!'S
READING ROOM

The Rottweiler in Schutzhund

Prey & Defense Drive Mechanisms

by David Deleissegues

The phase in Schutzhund generally of most interest to people is the protection phase or the "bite
work," but this is also the phase in which the separation occurs - the separation between those
dogs that can make it as a Schutzhund-titled dog and those that cannot. Almost all Rottweilers are
capable of doing the tracking and obedience, but many are eliminated in the protection work
because they cannot handle the stress of the work.

Generally, there is not a single reason why a dog cannot handle the work. Genetics, environment,
physical structure and early training all play a part in determining a dog's ability to do the work.
But genetics is the single most important aspect in having a dog who can compete in the sport of
Schutzhund. This is why you rarely, if ever, see a good Schutzhund dog that is of pure "show
lines." These dogs are usually too soft in temperament and don't have the mental makeup to
handle the work because this trait has been slowly bred out of them. The same holds true in every
breed of dog, dogs that do the work inherent to their breed come from parents and grandparents
that were also used in that work and not from show lines of dogs that do little more than stand
around baiting for food.

On occasion, a good working dog can be produced from these show lines; but this dog is usually
a fluke and rarely passes on its own working ability. This may be a disturbing fact to many, but the
evidence is present and can be seen every day at Schutzhund clubs throughout the country. The
best working Rottweilers come from Europe, most specifically from Germany. This is because of
the breeding restrictions imposed by the ADRK that a dog must do the bite work along with
having correct structure before it can be bred, just as the USRC now requires for registration.
Don't let anyone fool you and tell you that, " A Rottweiler is a Rottweiler" and that it can certainly
do Schutzhund just because of that simple fact. This is very far from the truth. If your dog is very
far removed from any type of working Schutzhund ancestors, a generalization that is 99% correct
is that it's doubtful that your dog can do the protection work. Working dogs are "bred" and rarely
"made".

The protection work is based on the dog's two drives: Prey and Defense. Prey is the drive in the
dog to chase and catch his food in the wild in order to satisfy his hunger and is at its highest level
when the dog is hungry. Now that dogs are domesticated their prey drive is no longer based on
hunger but on the dog's natural instinct to chase and catch (i.e., a ball, squirrel, frisbee, sleeve,
etc.). I want my Schutzhund dog to be very high in prey drive because these easily excitable dogs
are more that willing to respond to the agitator and can be advanced quickly because the dog has
great enthusiasm for the prey. Some dogs can do very well in competition working solely in the
prey drive if their fighting drive to keep the prey is very high. In fact, these high-prey dogs usually
get the best protection scores because they are easier to control in the obedience phases of the
protection work and because the biting is not seen as a threat to this type of dog. The pure prey
dog gets his enjoyment from biting and fighting for the sleeve. The downside of a strictly prey dog
is that because the work is seen as a game, the dog can be turned off from biting if they have a
bad experience such as something painful happening to them (i.e., helper steps on their toes, the
stick is acidentally placed across the dog's ribs instead of the loin, an awkward catch by the
helper, etc.) At these times of pain, the pure prey dog can quit on you (and this can be painful to
the handler if this happens during a trial!) because the "game" is no longer fun. It may take many
training sessions to build the dog back up to the level he was working at previously - if you are
able to at all. This is why I prefer a dog who possesses a high prey drive and yet who is confident
in defense also. These types of dogs can be worked anywhere and remain confident because the
dog always takes the bite work seriously and yet enjoys it also. That way, if something goes
wrong in a trial or in training, the dog can overcome this problem (pain) with his defense drive: the
dog is made angry and fights back even harder.

Defense drive is completely different from prey. Defense is the protective instinct in the dog to
defend, first himself and then his pups, pack, owner, etc. This is the dog's serious side; when he is
not having fun chasing but is defending /protecting. The dog is made to feel insecure or threatened
and so he comes out to bite in a serious manner.

As you can see, there is a big difference between prey and defense drive; and this is why it's ideal
if your dog possesses both of these drives if he is to be a good Schutzhund protection dog. You
don't want too much defense, however, as these dogs tend to be too "nervy " and unstable to be a
good Schutzhund prospect. Defense drive can be taxing on the dog as his nerves come into play
much more than in prey. Dogs that initially appear tough in defense (i.e., they bark and snarl
quickly with only slight agitation) are often extremely nervous and scared and cannot handle the
training and pressure that is imposed upon them. These dogs are generally spooky and lack
confidence either as a result of genetics, the environment they were raised in, or a combination of
the two. This type of over-nervous dog does not tend to do well in Schutzhund and can pose a
threat to the community at large because of the nervous aggression which shows up in the dog at
the slightest provocation. Don't, however, confuse an over-nervous, flighty dog with the dog that
may be high in defense, but nevertheless is confident in that defense. This dog knows when it is
appropriate to turn on his defense and generally is a very stable dog who is ideal for the protection
work.

It takes an experienced, knowledgeable decoy (or helper) to know when to bring out defense and
when to use prey and how much to use of each. Protection is the one phase in which you must
have someone to help you. The helper must be an athletic person with knowledge and experience
in reading a dog's temperament. Success in the protection work is greatly dependent on the
knowledge and ability of the helper because the helper trains the dog. He must read the dog and
then act accordingly to teach the dog how to bite full and hard on the sleeve, safely and with
confidence . It takes a lot of practice and a natural feel for the work to be top-flight helper. The
helper must be quick, athletic and possess strength and endurance to work a dog properly, he
must also be an actor who can be or do whatever he needs to in order to stimulate the dog and
bring the dog's prey and defense drives to high levels. Many times only small, subtle changes by
the helper, at the correct time, is all that is needed to make or break a dog in the training. But it's
not the helper's place to try to back a dog down or run him off. Quite the opposite is true; it's the
helper's job to try and advance the dog at all times and to have the dog's well being and
progression in mind at all times.

If you don't have an experienced helper, then the helper you do have should concentrate on
working the dog's prey drive only, as this can be done safely. Trying to work defense, without
understanding how, can create lifelong problems for a dog. For example, if a helper mistakenly
overloads a dog's defensive drive, it can create avoidance and insecurity in the dog which, in turn
causes the dog to not respond confidently to the helper and may ruin the dog for the work.

It is vital that the helper look at each dog individually as no two dogs are the same in temperament
and each dog must be trained according to the ability and/or limitations that that particular dog
possesses. This is why I believe helpers should have some kind of apprenticeships in order to be
competent enough to work dogs in protection, for their sake, and the sake of dogs they are
working. Ideally , a new helper should work with an experienced helper initially; and it's also best
if the novice helper works seasoned dogs first, to gain from their experience and because the
seasoned dog should be able to handle any errors the novice handler will make. It is unwise for a
novice helper to work young or inexperienced dogs when he starts out, as any error in a young
dog's early traiing can have a bad impression, and a bad impressin is a lastig impression. This also
may cause friction between the helper and the handler, and obviously this is not desirable.

This brings me to the point that decoy/helper work can be a thankless job as it entails many hours
of hard physical and mental work and because people tend to blame the helper for any problems
that occur in the training. Helpers get the glory and the blame. The helper must work hard, usually
for no money and oftentimes little appreciation. I would suggest to any Schutzhund club - or
individual who has a good helper - to treat that helper well or he may move on to another group
that will appreciate him. In our Schutzhund club, the helpers do not pay dues, nor do they pay for
seminars or meals at club functions. The club also pays for the helper's scratch pants and cleats
and basically tries to keep their helpers happy. Remember, the key to successful protection work
is a good dependable helper and he/she should be worth their weight in gold to the club. A top
helper can make a Schutzhund club successful.

Being a helper myself, I am pro-helper, but I'm sure you can see my point. Take care of your
helpers for they risk serious injury every time they do protection work. Develop new helpers also,
but realize that a well-intentioned non-athlete is not going to help much. It's demanding both
physically and mentally with the mental aspect being the toughest. The helper must read the dog
and find out the dog's temperament. He then must discuss what he sees with the handler and
formulate a training plan for each dog. This is very difficult to do for a number of dogs and is
stressful to the helper because a "good" helper is doing his or her best to help and improve your
dog.

So now we get to the meat and potatoes: Starting your dog in agitation. Assuming you have
access to a helper and that he's a good one, go to your helper and tell him about your dog. Listen
to the helper and answer his questions honestly about your dog. Remember, the helper must get
an accurate picture of your dog in order to know how to work him. The helper should then have
you tie your dog to a pole (a fixed stake in the ground with a heavy nylon or leather leash at least
6 feet long) or have you, the handler, act as a pole. The dog should have on a strong leather or
nylon collar, fur saver and harness. The helper should now get out of sight from the dog (i.e.,
behind a blind, wall, etc.) The handler should then walk his dog to the end of the line so that he
won't lunge out and get snapped over backwards and hurt himself or worse, suppress the
temperament the helper is working to bring out.

Now the helper should step out of the blind or wherever he's hiding) with a sack, leather strip or
sleeve in one hand and a whip or stick in the other hand, and stare at the dog while using
suspicious body language, but without moving. (I personally like to be about 25 feet from the dog,
although it can be much further or closer than that.) At this point, the dog should then transmit
signals to the helper which the helper must be able to read and respond to accordingly. A dog
with good nerves and a low suspicion level will generally just stare back or act indifferently toward
the helper. The helper, after seeing this type of response to his behavior, will then react by slowly
walking toward the dog in a slightly bent forward position, possibly cracking the whip or hitting
the stick along the pant leg, which simulates a threat to the dog. He continues to slowly advance
until he gets a reaction from the dog. This reaction may be only slight (such as the ears cocked at
full attention, intense staring) or the reaction maybe a very strong one such as growling or
barking). It's the helper's job to make sure he responds immediately to the dog's reaction,
however slight, by running away and hiding so that the dog feels that he has caused the man to
run. We are testing the dog's defense drive here. When the dog reacts, the helper should quickly
avert his eyes and swing the sack or sleeve as he makes his retreat as this stimulates the dog's
prey drive and releases the stress the defense caused initially.

Unlike the calm, typically prey-oriented dog, the sharp dog will generally react to the helper very
quickly after he steps out of the blind. He may immediately bark or growl at the helper, as the
sharp dog goes into defense drive much faster than a more calm dog. When the helper gets this
strong response, he then must immediately react to the sharp, defensive dog with the prey
attraction as these sharp dogs can overload easily. Sharp dogs should be worked in prey almost
exclusively early on to get them less frantic and calmer in biting the sack or arm. Care must be
taken not to overstress the sharp dog and to keep the calm dog excited so that their drive to bite
the sleeve is enhanced. Ideally, you want a dog who responds to the defense threat confidently
and yet reacts to the prey drive in an enthusiastic and high-drive manner. This is very technical yet
vital in the early training as it is of utmost importance the dog is made to feel he is winning at all
times and that he is controlling the helper. Again, a show of defense by the dog, however slight,
must be reinforced by the prey attraction through the helper. And then, you will generally see the
dog react more quickly and more confidently on the next approach by the helper.

Okay, so now the helper has received a reaction from taxing the dog's defense; he should then
know in his mind what must come next. The dog should be approached, but not straight on and
not in a threatening manner. Instead, the helper should move side to side at the dog, while at the
same time cutting the distance between the dog and the prey object in his hand. As the helper gets
in close - a few feet from the dog - he should swing the prey object within reach of the dog and
give the dog the opportunity to bite the object. If the dog lunges out and bites the sack or sleeve,
the helper must then judge the nerves of the dog. A very sharp dog should immediately be allowed
to have the prey and to hold or carry the prey to release the dog. A more calm dog can be met
with some resistance and calm tugging by the helper before releasing the prey a moment or two
later, to enhance the fightig drive.

At this point in a young dog's training, the helper should stop the work after only one or two bites
to leave the dog at his peak intensity. On the last bite, he should allow the dog to carry the prey
off the field with him. It's vital that you do not overwork the young dog. The dog should leave the
field full of intensity and actually a little unfulfilled. He should be left wanting more so that the next
time you work him, he will be full of drive and into the work even more. Less can be better than
more in protection work.

I also believe that the young Rottweiler should not be hit with the stick for many sessions. The
stick should, however, be present in the training and the helper may wave the stick around or
above the dog, in a non-threatening manner, so as to acclimate the dog to it and to help it
overcome its natural avoidane of being hit.

If your young dog shows little or no interest in the prey and cannot be stimulated in his defense,
then stop training and put the dog away for awhile. A dog should not be forced to work before
the maturity is there. Remember, the time to start each dog is differrent because they are all
individuals and do not mature on the same time schedule. Some Rottweilers are ready to start at
10-12 months of age, others are not ready until 15-18 months. Some may never be ready.
Another thing you can do for a dog that seems lacking in drive is to tie them out and let them
watch while other dogs are being agitated. This often will stimulate the dog and build drive.
However, it is important to let the dog watch only a short while so as to build drive and not overly
tire the dog.

If your dog is working well with lots of intensity, then you should be able to work him one to three
times per week with no problems. If the dog gets bored easily and loses drive, don't work him as
often so that his drive builds in the times of non-work and he will be more ready to work at the
proper time. Discuss this with your helper. He should be able to give you insight into how often
your dog should be worked.

Some very good dogs will bite the hard competition sleeve the first time out. Other dogs may
need months of sack work before they can be advanced to the arm, and some will make no
progess and will be unable to go on. As stated before, the helper and the handler must work
closely together and watch the dog in the training so as to correctly advance the dog. At times,
you may even need to put your dog away for a few months in order to allow maturing and to build
drive.
It's very important to create the proper foundation in the young or inexperienced dog. Shortcuts
and bad experiences are hard to correct in our breed as Rottweilers tend to have memories like
elephants. A note to keep in mind: "Patience is a virtue" and has its rewards in working a
Rottweiler.

Editor's Note: David Deleissegues is the Training Director of the South County Schutzhund
Club. He has competed at the International Meisterschaft in Switzerland and recently won
the USA North American Schutzhund Championship with his dog, Hark Vom Hause Anin.

Reprinted with permission of the Author, David Deleissegues. Copyright, 1996, Dogz One!


COMMENTS?
If you wish to recieve a response, please include your e-mail address.

[Von]

While it is certainly a member's prerogative to discuss this with you without your feedback appearing on our forum, I would encourage you to participate on our board so that all members can benefit from the discussion.

[barlo8]

Well to that report that i found, the reason i posted it was from the most part is that i personally think and have been proven to that rottweilers are the superior dog in the K9 world, and the saying that rottweilers can't handle the stress of bite work is ridiculous. If anything they might not stop biting till the agitator is down. They have a very tough personality and a bit of a hard head and show this on a regualar basis which makes them challenging to train and win all the time. A GSD is one of the best listeners and that is why it is used more, but its not half the dog a rottie is.
A rottie is probably one of the only breeds that can compete in almost any event and be in the top contenders.
Obedience trials
Shutzhund
Police trials
personal protection dogs
Search and rescue
weight pulling (very strong)
sled dog
Ring sport?
guide dogs
therapy dogs
and i'm sure there is more.

[laurlitt]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by barlo8:
the saying that rottweilers can't handle the stress of bite work is ridiculous. If anything they might not stop biting till the agitator is down.

A rottie is probably one of the only breeds that can compete in almost any event and be in the top contenders.
Obedience trials
Shutzhund
Police trials
personal protection dogs
Search and rescue
weight pulling (very strong)
sled dog
Ring sport?
guide dogs
therapy dogs
and i'm sure there is more. </font>

I think you may have misunderstood the intent of David's article. There are Rottweilers who can handle the stress of the bite work, David's Hark being one of them. However, there are many many Rottweilers, due to genetics, that cannot handle the stress. He mentioned that Rottweilers from show lines are good examples of this. I would tend to agree. I know many show qualtity Rottweilers who just aren't bite-work material or even have high prey drives for work like obedience, agility, SAR, etc.

Yes I would agree that the Rottweiler is very versatile and can compete with the best of them, but it doesn't mean that every Rottweiler is capable of doing all of these well or even any of these well.

------------------
Laurie & Blaise
(Los Angeles)



[This message has been edited by laurlitt (edited January 17, 2001).]

[WorkinDogz]

I absolutely agree with you Laurie.

A Rottie is not a Rottie is not a Rottie.

Some have it; some don't and some never will. (lines that is)

Bitework does separate the SchH dogs from the pets.

The show/work thing holds very true. Form does indeed FOLLOW function.

I find David's article to be 100% true and very accurate.

[German Vanegas]

I agree with Laurie and WorkingDogz. Also, as good as it is, the Rottweiler breed is not "the one and only". I love Rotties as in my number one breed, but I wouldn't dare to say no other breed can do what a well-bred Rottie does... just because there are a quite a few out there http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[TrinityRun]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by barlo8:
Well to that report that i found, the reason i posted it was from the most part is that i personally think and have been proven to that rottweilers are the superior dog in the K9 world,)

But superior in what venue? Certainly not all.

( and the saying that rottweilers can't handle the stress of bite work is ridiculous.)

Why? FAR more can't do the work than can. Are you participating in the sport? If not, where are you getting this information?

(If anything they might not stop biting till the agitator is down.)

Or get stepped on, hit too hard, looked at too hard, screamed at too loud or had the whip cracked too much long before the helper falls down. Heck,even the falling can freak a lot of Rottweilers into coming off the sleeve. The only thing keeping those dogs on the field is the fact they are attached to their handler via that line!

(They have a very tough personality and a bit of a hard head and show this on a regualar basis which makes them challenging to train and win all the time.)

Rottweilers tend to do what brings them pleasure and avoid what brings them displeasure. They prefer to work for a paycheck just like you and me. I don't fault anyone, man or beast, for that and that certainly doesn't make us hardheaded.

Generally speaking, a good handler knows this and is able to use it to his or her advantage. It's what makes Rottweilers more difficult to train than your average Shepherd. To some, this is a major stumbling block and to others it's a stepping stone.

One of my favorite quotes bears repeating:

"The Rottweiler's reticence to do what bores him is surpassed only by his boundless enthusiasm for doing what he enjoys."

Again, a good handler understands this and helps facilitate this end.

(A GSD is one of the best listeners and that is why it is used more, but its not half the dog a rottie is.)

I believe you are referring to using dogs in law enforcement here? Ever tried heaving a 120lb male Rottie through a window 5' up in the air? Ever tried stuffing that same Rottie in the hole the size of a basketball to catch the fleeing criminal. You think these tasks may be easier with a 68lb Shepherd? Shepherds are faster for the most part, I'd even say more agile than a Rottweiler. Their desire to please, to work harder with far smaller rewards than a Rottie is what makes THEM one, if not THE most adapatable breeds in the world. The breed is more forgiving than a Rottie but that doesn't make them better listeners.

No, I don't own a GSD and honestly have no desire to even given their remarkable characteristics. I love the Rottweiler but just stating my opinion on another breed which deserves a lot of credit.

(A rottie is probably one of the only breeds that can compete in almost any event and be in the top contenders.
Obedience trials
Shutzhund
Police trials
personal protection dogs
Search and rescue
weight pulling (very strong)
sled dog
Ring sport?
guide dogs
therapy dogs
and i'm sure there is more. </font>

GSD's, Malinois, ABST's, Boxers, Belg Tervs, Giant Schnauzers, Bouvs, etc.... You'll find dogs in many of the working and terrier breeds who can do the work described above. It's their versatility that makes them special. Even more special is the single dog, of any breed, who is successful in several venues.

[zias]

Barlo,

I talked to David last night about your post. As a matter of fact he was quite flattered that you posted his work. He said he wished he was more computer literate so he could come to rottweiler.net, but, I don't think his training (computer that is) has taken him to the appropriate level yet. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

David agreed with what Laurlitt stated. He was referring to show lines and genetics. Some dogs have it, some don't. Each rottweiler is different. Some can handle it, some can't.

As far as *my* view goes, in general if you look at the # of dogs in any breed, relatively few can become a Sch. III dog. Rotts are no different. Genetics play a large roll. Some dogs can handle the stresses, some can't. Rotts are my breed of choice, and I believe they are very versatile as well. I find the article to be on the money.


Zias

-"Just remember, every dog has it's good and bad days."

[Ramon]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by German Vanegas:
Also, as good as it is, the Rottweiler breed is not "the one and only". I love Rotties as in my number one breed, but I wouldn't dare to say no other breed can do what a well-bred Rottie does... just because there are a quite a few out there http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif</font>

Right you are! Just ask Dave Deleissegues. I just a bought a video tape on training American Bulldogs and Dave D. himself is the co-author of that tape! He did an excellent job on the tape, by the way.