Ok, I have some questions about what these trainers are saying?

[Hope]

So, I want to take Mondo to a shutzund club, and I have a few questions about what the trainers have mentioned thus far.

They asked the obvious questions, is he fixed, what are his lines, etc.

But, I had two trainers ask me if my dog was obedience trained. When I told them both his level of obedience at the time, they said that it is better not to have the dog too obedience trained prior to starting shutzund because it causes the dog to become submissive and not independent for the confidence needed in the sport. Is this right? I didn't really think that I was making my dog submissive by having him in obedience training.

Secondly, I have a question about age. Is my dog too young to start this sport, he is almost one year? Are there any really good books to help me learn about this sport?

Thanks.

[OurBoyKane]

Hope

The goal of schutzhund obedience is to have a dog that responds instantly and fluently to commands, while having a happy and enthusiastic attitude to the work with intense focus on the handler.

IMO most general obedience techniques do not acheive this. Some even damage it beyond repair. Its not nice to watch robotic dogs potter around the field, obviously wishing they were somewhere else!

1 yr old is probably a good time to start your dog in Schutzhund. The trainers and other club members should let you know how much and what sort of training to do. Don't be in a hurry though - it can take some Rotts 2-3yrs to settle into the work.

I've had my 8mth old at the club since he was 16wks - socializing, getting used to the sights and sounds. Very recently we've started some very basic obedience and tracking.

Gottfried Dildei and, I think, Sheila Booth have done some good books eg. Schutzhund Obedience - Training in Drive. Search Amazon or somewhere like that for "schutzhund". The club may also have a library.

Enjoy. Have fun the rewards will come.

Evan

[This message has been edited by OurBoyKane (edited January 13, 2001).]

[luvarott]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hope:

... they said that it is better not to have the dog too obedience trained prior to starting shutzund because it causes the dog to become submissive and not independent for the confidence needed in the sport....
</font>

Shoot! I didn't know that! Does someone want to tell my CDX male that cus I find it hard to get him to stop slamming me against the wall when he sees me pull his dumbbell out of the training bag
Independence is the name of the game when it comes to Utility level trialing...a confident dog is a must.......
The trainers do have a point though....there is still far too many beginner obedience classes being taught with negative techniques and that is guaranteed to kill the spirit of a Rott...

[WorkinDogz]

Hope,

What they are talking about is willingness for a dog to hit the end of the lead...to not really care where the handler is; only focusing on the helper when doing bite development for the protection phase.

Yes; SchH obedience is different than AKC. The attitude we want our dogs to have (ie presenting a happy; obedient dog with a bounce in his step) is often times penelized heavily in the AKC ring. (They ask because they know you can always 'take some out' but you have an uphill battle going every trying to 'put some back in')

They're talking about bitework; not really obedience in your case. Young dogs are impressionable. Often times a dog trained early never to pull has mixed emotions when hitting the end of the lead.

[BostonRott]

ALso, some dogs who are heavily obedience trained from the beginning become very reliant on their owners.....always looking for guidance. This shows up in bitework, especially as the dog who goes into the blind, does a few barks and then starts looking around for the handler.....waiting for that next command.....not confident without the handler around.

[German Vanegas]

I am with WorkingDogz and BostonRott.

[Orville Story]

12 months old is a good age to start.

In Schutzhund we are asking the dog to do conflicting things. We want the dog to challenge a man while obeying a man. Obedience at the dog's developement stage of life can effect his willingness to take on a grown man. The premise of obedience is submission.

We want our dogs to go on the field and bite a larger being that is going to pound our dogs with a weapon, and at the same time obey our every command. To much obedience on a young dog will destroy his willingness to stay on the sleeve, or maintain a solid bite.

Dog have survived for thousands of years because they have learned to run from a stronger opponent. We ask our dogs to take on the stronger opponent, and win. The only way that can happen is if the dog learns growing up that he can win against an adult man. Most people are under the impression that is natural for a dog to take a grown male human. The fact is very few will.

The dogs that do we admire. To have such strong natured dogs under obedience is awesome. That is what the sport is about.

Only time and training can determine if the obedience you have give your dog will effect his bite work. The key thing to watch is as you dog progresses in training, watch your dog's reaction when the helper passes his hand over your dogs head. If your dog maintains a strong bite then I would assume the harm of the obedience training is minor. If your dog is overly concern with the helper's hand, then I would say that the obedience training has become a problem to some degree.
This problems can be worked out sometimes and sometimes they can not.

If the helper can pull on the tug and stroke your dog's head at the same time. Then the obedience training has not weakened to any negative degree. This should not be even attempted in the first couple of sessions. At first the dog should just get the tug and win after making a bite. Only after he builds up his confidence should the helper attempt to wave his hand over the dogs head.

[This message has been edited by Orville Story (edited January 13, 2001).]

[damp]

I too agree with WorkinDogs and BostonRott!

Sometimes it is a choice between “cholera and plague” to advice a first time owner with a high driven dog, how and when to start real obedience training. The dog has the potential for WORK, you love that young dog and wish it was your own, but mostly it is a risky gambling NOT to tell how important it is to get completely and early control of such a dog, if the owner is a novice and doesn’t know what he/she has to deal with.
But don’t despair, what you lose on the roundabouts you make up on the swings…what you lose in protection, you make up in obedience… (Generally)

[rottypiper]

I think the way the OB is taught is more critical than if it is taught. OB doesn't have to be a negative thing and bring down drive. I taught my dog with pure motivational methods until he was one year old. It was all done with food and a flat collar. He loved it. Now I am polishing his OB while still using food and a prong collar. The food will eventually be weened out and he will work for my praise. My dog has no problem hitting the end of the leash when the helper comes out. Does anyone else train like this or am I out to lunch again?

[Hope]

THANK YOU FOLKS SOOOOOOO MUCH!!!

This is such interesting information! I have always trained my pup through positive reinforcement, almost no negative correction, only when needed and only when unwanted aggression arose, so I hope I have him on the right path. I was just about to start obedience again, but I am going to hold off for the next phase until I get a sense of how obedience works in Shutzund, and get some information from my trainer and the shutzund trainer.

The weather is great now, and I can't wait until tomorrow to see how the club works. I am so excited, even if it doesn't work out with Mondo, I am really interested in learning how this sport works.

Agian, thanks for all of the information.

[TrinityRun]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rottypiper:
I think the way the OB is taught is more critical than if it is taught. OB doesn't have to be a negative thing and bring down drive. I taught my dog with pure motivational methods until he was one year old. It was all done with food and a flat collar. He loved it. Now I am polishing his OB while still using food and a prong collar. The food will eventually be weened out and he will work for my praise. My dog has no problem hitting the end of the leash when the helper comes out. Does anyone else train like this or am I out to lunch again? </font>

Cheer up, Piper...yer ok. I know what you are saying.

I think what most trainers try to get across to new folks in the sport is to not be in a rush with their dogs. Too many people can't stand to be idle with their dogs - they feel like they are way behind schedule if their dog can't do what the neighbors dog can do yet.

We intentionally encourage the crazy drive, the confidence, the speed, the body contact..all the things many folks would deem disobedient and unknowingly try to squash. We purposely hold off on the tougher
stuff, the heeling, the precision, dumbbell work, exercises that place stresses on immature dogs. These lessons require a certain level of yielding on the dog's part, makes him look to the handler for guidance. As well, this can happen on the field too...just where we don't want it. Obviously, a dog who can't stand alone and think for himself isn't going to get very far in the sport so we hold off until the confidence is present in the dog, he understands the game and can stand alone. Then we introduce some obedience to the picture.

What I think Piper is saying and I agree is that folks don't realize is there are plenty of "obedience" type things they can be doing with their dogs that will not hinder the work being done developing grip, learning to strike, and independently problem solve.

The complaint I hear most often is if I allow my dog to grow devoid of the formal obedience for the better part of a year - how am I going to be able to live with him? It's a valid question. However, refraining from obedience, to me, doesn't mean be remiss in teaching house manners. Rather,
it means reach a balance where you can live with the crazy fool, quench is thirst for knowledge by teaching solely motivational, fun things that are separate from field obedience.

Now....did I make any sense at all or should I pick up the check?

[Hope]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lauren Fitzgerald:

What I think Piper is saying and I agree is that folks don't realize is there are plenty of "obedience" type things they can be doing with their dogs that will not hinder the work being done developing grip, learning to strike, and independently problem solve.

The complaint I hear most often is if I allow my dog to grow devoid of the formal obedience for the better part of a year - how am I going to be able to live with him? It's a valid question. However, refraining from obedience, to me, doesn't mean be remiss in teaching house manners. Rather,
it means reach a balance where you can live with the crazy fool, quench is thirst for knowledge by teaching solely motivational, fun things that are separate from field obedience.

Now....did I make any sense at all or should I pick up the check?</font>

Nicely stated. Indeed, I found myself losing my cool with Mondo because he is starting to get a little cocky, he doesn't seem to look to me so much anymore as his security blanket. It is strange to hear some people say that obedience is the key, while others say that it can destroy their spirit before they start the sport. But, I do understand how there are different types of obedience in terms of how obedience is treated in both arenas. Though I respect that there is a difference, now I have to work on how to deal with obedience on the field versus the class room, and this will take some learning on my part. Any suggestions would be really appreciated, but for the moment, we are taking things nice and slow. Anyway, if Mondo doesn't do well with his first test on the tug, there won't be much to worry about, right?

[czechrott]

Wrong!

You have to have a positive attitude, and realize that Mondo might not do anything the first time, or the first FEW times. It is incumbant on the trainer [Helper] to read Mondo, and determine how best to proceed. Schutzhund is not like AKC sports as far as charting progress. Because the sport is diversified, and challenges the full temperament of the dog, the path of training is usually a rollercoaster, rather than a steady climb up.

The phrase "Obedience is the key in schutzhund" is correct regarding COMPETITION. Obedience plays an important part in all three phases, and is almost always the determining factor in who places 1st. Competition belongs at the Sch III level. For those looking to a Sch I, building a proper foundation is key. With normal club dogs, the general way is to "Pump them up" with confidence, speed, and no inhabitions. Then you can tone them down, as the training gets more demanding. For those who were blessed with a high powered dog from solid competition lines, then concessions can be made without concern, as they require control early on, or it may never occur.

As you will see, it takes a huge commitment to earn a Sch title. Don't be discouraged, the sport tests the temperament of the handler as well as the dog!

[Hope]

Wrong what??!! I mean what am I wrong about? Are you saying that my dog might have potential even if he doesn't show it when he is tested?

[WorkinDogz]

99V hardness and courage PRONOUNCED Mr. CzechRott

Hope,

Testing the dog gives the helper and/or the Director of Training a "starting ground" to work with.

It tells them of your dogs strengths and weaknesses...if drives are present or lacking.

Yes; a dog can fail miserably on the initial "test" and the handler might be encouraged to simply work on obedience and tracking because the dog isn't "cut out" for the sport. It's RARE that this happens on the test though! The dog would have to be either a total skitzoid freak of nature or a complete dead head with no drive!

The test is nothing more than a "placement" exam for bitework. (needs more prey drive; is defensive; lacks heart; is handler sensitive....etc)

I suggest that you don't mix up AKC-type obedience with Schutzhund obedience though...there will be plenty of time when the dog is mature to work on both.

Pick a sport and a style of obedience. Mondo won't be nearly as confused and you'll have more success.