The truth about protection dog training

[German Vanegas]

First, a lethal weapon can be considered a baseball bat, a steel pipe, a shovel, a pair of scissors, a motor vehicle, a container full of gasoline, a crossbow, a sword, a kitchen knife, a hunting shotgun, a machete, a small caliber pistol, a electric shocking device, a solid stick, a fork, a pocket knife, an ice pick, rat poison, a piece of electric cord, a razor blade, a hair spray can with a cigarrete lightener, a butcher's knife, a hammer, and the list goes on and on and on. Based on such reasoning, then many things in our lives should be abolished, I guess. Well, that is like going back to the stone age... where people killed other people with heavy sticks!!!

Let us think with logic an offer a fair analysis of what a protection dog is all about, and not just allow emotions override common sense.

For those that are not well informed enough, I dare you to conduct the appropriate research. Some of you seem to be misinformed or badly misguided.

The truth is that, the vast majority of dog bites are from UNTRAINED dogs. That's right! From the many improperly reared dogs kept by unsuitable owners!

The history of the Rottweiler is not just of a cart-pulling dog. That is incomplete and totally misleading. The Rottweiler was used as a sentry dog by the Roman Army. This breed was known for guarding lives and estates. Also, for protecting the flock. Later, the Rottweiler guarded the butchers' money purses in Germany. The breed's reputation as a protection dog became legendary. So much so that in the early 1900's the Rottweiler was accepted as a police dog in Germany. In short, it has been well documented throughout time that Rottweilers excel as guard dogs. That is the traditional Rottweiler: a breed with a strong protective instinct and guarding abilities.

However, I agree with one thing: protection dogs are not for everybody. By the same token, the Rottweiler breed is not for everybody either. If people want sweet friendly easygoing lickety dogs, then they should get another breed. But please, do not get a Rottweiler if you are not qualified to handle it. And here is where the problem with the breed arises: from the legions of unqualified breeders and irresponsible owners that have messed up this otherwise fantastic breed. Many of them on a "trial and error" kind of testing. This lack of knowledge and poor understanding have nearly ruined the traditional Rottweiler, to such extent that one wonders about the worrisome future for our beloved breed! :(

The reasoning behind "only police agencies should have protection dogs, is the same as "only police officers and criminals should be armed!". It makes no sense, right?

If you are a dedicated dog owner that took the time to learn in-depth about the Rottweiler, and put in the time to do the best you can, as a responsible dog owner, then you will do fine with a Rottweiler. In the other hand, if you just got a Rottweiler because "they are cute" or "they guard naturally", then you should not have one, period!

Ethical protection dog trainers screen out dog owners that want their dogs trained, including conducting criminal background checks, to make sure they are qualified and responsible enough. Of course, you find unscrupulous "protection" dog trainers too, as you can find this kind of person in any profession that you name. We cannot prevent that. We are humans. Some of us are good and some of us are evil. I want my Rottweilers to be with me in battling the evil side! ;)

Anyway, allow me explain to some of you what a protection dog is all about:

A PROTECTION-TRAINED DOG IS A DOG WITH A SOUND STABLE TEMPERAMENT, FULLY TRAINED IN OBEDIENCE-CONTROL, THAT LEARNS TO RESPOND TO REAL PERCEIVED THREATS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME IS A SOCIAL DOG WITH A NICE DISPOSITION.

A protection dog is not a "Cerberus" type of dog (Satan's dog), or a "junkyard dog", that bites anyone on sight. A protection-trained dog can be taken confidently to public places!

By the way, is totally wrong to confuse a schutzhund trained dog with a personal protection dog. So right there is another misconception from many novices. A schutzhund dog is a great canine athlete. A protection dog is a dependable security dog capable to deal with real life situations. Big difference there, is it not?!

Last, I am not advocating protection-trained dogs for everybody, but only for the truly committed responsible dog owners that can handle a high driven traditional Rottweiler ;)

[ May 23, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[Doug Wendling]

German
Great post, I agree 100000%!!!!!!

Doug Wendling

[Storm]

Things that make you go hmmmmmm! ;) :)

[damp]

Thank you very much, German for your informative post... as always ;)

[ May 23, 2001: Message edited by: damp ]

[Burnsway]

To remind everyone of my original quote that did not say protection work was for cops only. that wasnt even the source of my quote.

Ok guys

Im sure this may get heated or no one may even respond or read it because I posted it.

Im always open minded so I opened this so that the few of you who so much dissagreed
on my opinion on last thread could have a chance to ease my mind on a few things
about personel protection.

As a bite work/protection training course how can you as a trainer protect the
outcome. What liabilities will you have in these true documented cases below.

As you see I didnt add the cases ...everyone saw it no reason to add the cases again

Now nowhere did I call it a "schutzhund trained" dogs.

heres germans post!

The reasoning behind "only police agencies should have protection dogs, is the same as
"only police officers and criminals should be armed!". It makes no sense, right?

I never said Only Police. I said in service work. By that I mean trained individuals that know how to handle this kind of dog. Breeders earning titles, search and rescue, People who take courses and get license from state, People with businesses to protect....etc..Thats all service to me. My reason for the post was that I have seen to many in here give advice and even training tips to individuals they have no idea who they are. Maybe they got kicked from a reputable training class and are here getting tips. This could be dangerouse. And the news only covers the DANGER of these dogs to the public. So with my agenda with this breed along with a few other breeds is to protect the reputation the best I can. By that I believe that tips and training of the protection/bite work shouldnt go to just anyone without any check into it.

The truth is that, the vast majority of dog bites are from UNTRAINED dogs. That's
right! From the many improperly reared dogs kept by unsuitable owners!

German please send me the proof that this is just not opinion. My opinion does go along that most bites are untrained dogs. But most bites to death or serious injury I believe in my opinion are from trained dogs in the hands of untrained owners or criminals. I say this is "my opinion" because I cant find documented proof no more then you will beable to find documented proof 98% of bites come from untrained dogs. By document...I dont mean websites that just say it but ones with data ..graphs and where they got thier info.

My post was by no means saying that this kinda of training is wrong but as this got deleted.One person said if it dont bite dont breed it. This is the kinda of thing that news people get a hold of and uses this kind of attitude to destroy the reputation of these few breeds condemned to be dangerouse.

I agree with one thing: protection dogs are not for everybody. By the
same token, the Rottweiler breed is not for everybody either.

I dont believe that you must follow protection type of training to be a good Rottie owner.Thier are plenty other types of work..thats a matter of preference.

Towards the end of the thread that got locked ..YES I GOT ANGRY...WITH RIGHTS!! Words were put in my mouth and the thread was twisted. I will always and I mean always protect my self when one tries to make it look I dont deserve to own this dog or to post my opinion. Its An Open Forum!! And no one in here has the right to say Im wrong just because I dont agree with them. I have never once in this forum said YOUR WRONG. I usually will say send me proof so I may see the light from your end. when I put it in the terms...IN MY OPINION! Thats just what it is My Opinion! Thats not an open invitation to an argument. Thats me telling the person who posted that in my 20 years of raising ..studying...and investigating dogs. Along with some work through rescue and vets that that is what my opinion is. I was just asked this morning by an individual seeing me work with my psyche in the woods how much I charged to train. I cracked up and said it was my hobbie not career. By that token some people just know and understand...they dont have to have fancy titles to be able to give sound advice that comes from "thier opinion" of working with dogs thier wholelife!

I really felt I had a right to view my opinion after I was attacked for basically agreeing with 98 percent of what was being said.

[amber bock]

For the record I am the one that confused schz dogs with protection dogs, My ignorence on that is cured. So the reason i love this forum is the education. So German please educate me a little on what exactly makes up protection work. I know what the dogs temperment and requirements are but what is the training?
Note: I'm curious and seeking knowledge. I am not against protection work schz or guns just incompetent people owning guns dogs and protection dogs. I am also curious since I am in the insurance industry and situations of liability interest me. thanks

[Von]

Just for the record, no specific training advice for protection dogs or bitework has ever been posted in these forums because of our concerns it could be dangerous in the wrong hands. Most tips on these subjects are so general that you'd already have to be involved in the work or sport to understand them. There has only ever been one topic posted that could have led to problems if the methods were attempted by an unskilled owner. It was deleted and the member who posted it very graciously understood our concerns.

Von
Administrator

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Von:
<STRONG>Just for the record, no specific training advice for protection dogs or bitework has ever been posted in these forums because of our concerns it could be dangerous in the wrong hands. Most tips on these subjects are so general that you'd already have to be involved in the work or sport to understand them. There has only ever been one topic posted that could have led to problems if the methods were attempted by an unskilled owner. It was deleted and the member who posted it very graciously understood our concerns.

Von
Administrator</STRONG>

;) :)

[German Vanegas]

Burnsway,
Why to twist things around? Why are you shifting the burden of proof to me? You made a claim. Why YOU don't tell us where you got reliable information to assert that most dog bites come from TRAINED dogs?! Really?! Well, you should demonstrate your facts before asking me to produce any evidence, which I can, but you are diverting the attention from YOUR own claims.

According to YOU, most dog bites come from trained to bite dogs. OK. Tell us the source. Where did you get such information from? Is it a personal inference?!... Please, don't make a wild claim and then ask me to produce factual data. You are the one that stated "trained dogs are the ones doing most of the biting". OK. Fair enough... What is the source of that information to be considered reliable and trustworthy?... Please, share it with us ;)

Have you check with official statistics? Or are you just assuming what could be the dog biting problem?! Is a personal opinion or factual data?! I beg you, tell us the truth!

You think that trained dogs are dangerous. Allright. Tell us exactly why YOU think so. I am all "ears" ;) :)

[ May 23, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[WorkinDogz]

Burnsway writes: "My opinion does go along that most bites are untrained dogs. But most bites to death or serious injury I believe in my opinion are from trained dogs in the hands of untrained owners or criminals."

Totally incorrect. Most deaths involve children (including infants) and according to STATISTICS.....the UNTRAINED dog is responsible..or..should I say; the IRRESPONSIBLE OWNER who fails to contain, control AND TRAIN their dog is RESPONSIBLE.

Burnsway...whether you want to believe it or not...the huge majority of folks who participate in any form of bitework; be it SchH or PP have the MOST reliable obedience dogs...and the dogs with the MOST control.

The average pet owner with a tough dog or a TOUGH BREED; and little training skills and/or the desire to think their "fur baby" :::GAG::: would ever hurt a flea are the ones to watch carefully. :(

[ May 23, 2001: Message edited by: WorkinDogz ]

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
<STRONG>Burnsway...whether you want to believe it or not...the huge majority of folks who participate in any form of bitework; be it SchH or PP have the MOST reliable obedience dogs...and the dogs with the MOST control.

The average pet owner with a tough dog or a TOUGH BREED; and little training skills and/or the desire to think their "fur baby" :::GAG::: would ever hurt a flea are the ones to watch carefully. :(

</STRONG>

That's right!

[DoggGuy]

I THINK THAT WHEN GERMAN SAID TRAINED DOGS HE MEANT PROPERLY TRAINED DOGS.
A PERSON WHO HAS A DOG THAT IS PROPERLY TRAINED WOULD HAVE TO SPEND COUNTLESS HOURS PERFECTING AND PRACTICING AND WORKING WITH THE DOG AND MOST OF THE GOOBAS WITH KILLER ROTTWEILERS JUST TRAIN THEM FOR ONE THING TO BITE ON COMMAND

[FredAl]

Burnsway, below are statistics of dog bite data in US and Canada. The second one from Canada has the graphs and data you require. I also copied and pasted a paragraph that will support German’s statement that “the vast majority of dog bites are from UNTRAINED dogs”. And, yes, that’s about 98%.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm
“Of the 385 records in the study, 278 (72.2%) specified the breed of the dog. There were 50 types of purebreds and 33 types of cross-breeds identified. The most common breeds were German Shepherds (40), Cocker Spaniels (16), Rottweilers (16) and Golden Retrievers (15). Of the 283 cases in which the sex of the dog was known, 72.7% were male. Forty-three dogs (11.2%) had received obedience training and nine (2.3%) had been trained as guard or attack dogs. Most dogs (71.6%) had not previously bitten a person (of the 267 dogs for which this information was available).” http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpb/lcdc/publ.../iss11d_e.html

As I understand it, your points against protection training can be summed up in this statement you made:

“So with my agenda with this breed along with a few other breeds is to protect the reputation the best I can.”

Since most dog-bites are inflicted on children, a better way to accomplish this is to educate the children on bite-prevention and help the Rottweiler owners how to properly breed, care for, and train their dogs.

This is what I did when I was very involved with the breed. I took my rotties and gave bite-prevention seminars to Elementary Schools and Cub Scout meetings; I trained them to pull carts and gave free kiddie cart rides at community fairs and functions; I took them to hospitals and hospices as Therapy Dogs; I trained them for SAR and SchH; and I took them to Sieger shows where they acquired V ratings.

By the way, I also trained them as my Personal Protection dogs.

As a side note, I volunteered my time as a trainer to help the rotties and other dogs in the Animal Shelters of VA, DC and MD. I was also involved in finding homes in VA for the hundreds of displaced dogs in FL when Hurricane Andrew struck. USAir was kind enough to fly them to us for rehabilitation, retraining and placement.

These are more constructive and effective ways “to protect the reputation” of the breed and the responsible owners.

[Burnsway]

Thats my point!!!!

why is it that you guys assume me wrong when you have no proof....I admitted I had no proof.. Cant you do the same....Thats why I state "IN MY OPINION"!!!

German please send me the proof that this is just not opinion. My opinion does go along
that most bites are untrained dogs. But most bites to death or serious injury I believe in my
opinion are from trained dogs in the hands of untrained owners or criminals. I say this is
"my opinion" because I cant find documented proof no more then you will beable to find
documented proof 98% of bites come from untrained dogs. By document...I dont mean
websites that just say it but ones with data ..graphs and where they got thier info.

Now please im telling you that if you can show me proof...I WILL AND I SWEAR THIS.. STAND RIGHT BEHIND YOU AND SAY AMEN!!!!! THEY ARE RIGHT!!!!!!

But unfortuantly I havent seen proof...and until I do I only can go by my expierences and what I have seen with my own 2 eyes.

Ok Im going to bed..hopefully when I wake up you guys will have some proof or url's or something to back your way to make me see the light...but till then I snore till my cute "MIXED BREEDS" wake me up for a snack...... :D

[Burnsway]

Fred al..I will most deffinatly check those sites out in the morning......Im off to bed....but befor I post one more thing I will read those sites word for word then post "MY OPINION" I wrote my post befor I saw those url's....and have no problem checking them out.... :D