Genetics and the Bite

[WorkinDogz]

I'm just curious here. How many (and why) believe that a full-mouth bite tends to have genetic links?

I'm talking baby puppies now; not dogs that may have been screwed up by some idiot with a sleeve.

The reason I ask is....a friend of mine has a litter of 7 week old GSD's on the ground. It's a "highline" breeding with very little "hardness" in the pedigree. The bitch is an "ok" dog; not what I would call a "powerhouse" by any means, but she does "ok". (She has her SchH2) The one thing she does in bitework occasionally is have a shallow bite if the helper deviates even the slightest bit in sleeve presentation. (Naturally; the helper gets blasted by the handler....but anyway )

Now; since I have a ton of kids; whenever friends have litters on the ground, dinner invitations come in bunches (come for dinner oh and let the kids socialize with the pups).

One thing I noticed after visiting this litter 3 times at different ages; 4, 6 and 8 weeks....these pups bite like their mother. Some other litters (various working breeds including Rotties) it's obvious that the pups practically swallow anything they're intent on biting....ball, your arm..paper wad...whatever. Mouth always full of whatever is being bitten.

I believe that the bite (especially in a baby pup who has had no training; it's just THEM) and the depth of bite has much genetic basis.

I'm just interested in hearing your views on this.

[damp]

I do believe it has much, (nearly saying… everything) to do with genetic.
Why? I am just now thinking of all the breeding dogs I have seen do bite work, and compare the off spring to the parents. Only one pup, I remember (just now) was far away from the parents and the rest of the litter concerning the bite.
Please don’t ask me for scientific prove… it is just what I have been seeing.
An interesting question, I have never thougt of this before!

[This message has been edited by damp (edited September 15, 2000).]

[rottypiper]

Yes an excellent question and I would like to add one more twist to it. If the bite form is genetic can you make a genetically week bite more full by training? I think it has alot to do with genetics but I have seen brother and sister GSD's with totally opposite bites with the less full bite belonging to the female. Is the gender to blame for this or a genetic fluke?

[Orville Story]

I believe the bite is totaly genetic. Dogs that retrieve tugs, sticks, bouies in the back of the mouth, bite deep. Dog that retrieve the same things loosely, bite sallow. I see puppies bite full naturaly, and I see puppies that do not.

For confromation reasons I picked a puppy out of a litter to keep for myself. Today they are seven weeks old. Two hours ago a couple of adult dogs were fighting over a burlap sack. One puppy ran up bit the sack with a full bite and held on for his total worth with a very deep bite. Becuase the bite was so deep he did very well as the two adult dogs tugged back and forth. As I ran over to see which pup made such a bite, I was extremely happy to see that it was the one I had picked for myself. At seven weeks I already know that this boy will be solid in the bite work.

[WorkinDogz]

That has been my experience too Orville. In fact; I've past up some very nice pups based on nothing but their bite in a retrieve on something that they CAN have a full mouth bite on.

Been told "you're nuts" before over this..lol but hey...never fed a dog that didn't have a full mouth bite from baby puppyhood

[rottypiper]

Good philosophy WorkinDogz!! Might as well give yourself the best odds of getting a real worker!

[Mick Trainer]

I would say that a full grip is a Genetic thing, no question. I would not buy a pup that when young and playing did not bite with a full mouth. A dog can be taught to bite full over time (at least improve) but one that truly swollows the sleeve has it genetically. For me it is definatly a nerve related behavior too.

Mick.

[WorkinDogz]

Ok..now let's take this a step further.

I'm sure we've all run across really, really nice dogs who were screwed up by faulty training...maybe to the point of not even being willing to engage the helper. (I watched with my own two eyes a helper/handler team take a 12 month old; tough as nails dog who in bite development was proving to be one helluva dog; totally committed to the bite; working the helper hard and striking fast. Solid as a rock in the head on and off the field. Nice, Nice balance of prey/defense...just a super young prospect. Within 4 months of "training", this same dog refused to engage the helper and had problems with the stick.)

Now...naturally anyone looking at this dog on the field mutters "sh*t dog"....

I say....woooohooooo.. I'll buy him

Here's the question. How many dogs, who started off in their training with the nerve, character and bite and were on the receiving end of horrible training....do indeed recover (of course with much conserted effort) and recover to the point of being very close to what they "would have been" (I don't think you ever get 100% of "it" back once it's taken out).

Would you rely on early development; a solid foundation and strenght of nerve and charater and "take a chance" on retraining?

(I would; but that's just me.)

[czechrott]

This is a very common thing to see. If someone, like me, wanted to get an affordable dog from Europe, it's usually the ones that could not stand up to the heavy handed training it might have had. These dogs suffered a set back in training, and the owners simply "Unload" them for a nice profit.

The question, though, is hard to answer. I imported a high profile dog many years ago. This dog had failed tracking on a Sch III, and had low scores for the I and II. I was able to change this, and earn very good scores. This same dog had a inconsistent grip. That was not so easily fixed. Three years of training only produced minimal results. My current dog now had a heavy hand when training for some elementary Czech titles. I'm still trying to overcome this, mostly in obedience.

I think that problems in "Protection" are the ones that are the most challenging. It does feel great to see success where others have failed.

[damp]

No, I would not rely on early development. I think a dog can be so ruined, that it is impossible to do an acceptable retraining. Some years ago we had several dogs coming to train in our club from another club. The philosophy of this club was, to put on a LOT of pressure to even very young dogs, and if they couldn’t make it, it wasn’t worth to train them… “Brake the dog and raise it”
If you are witness to see an idiot systematically ruin dogs, and you let him work your own dog… then there must be something wrong with your knowledge concerning training bite work. I do think a successful retraining also depends a lot of the owner’s abilities.
May be other could have retrained these dogs, but the decoys in my club couldn’t, and in the name of justices to my decoys, we only have the owners words for what his dogs once had been.

I once tried to retrain one of my Boxers. He had NOT been badly trained, (had passed SchH1) but had to start over again, by the reason of growing gums. (gingival tumour) After the surgery and full-recovered mouth, he wouldn’t carry ANYTHING. I started retraining, as if he was an 8-week-old pup, and after about one year, he passed SchH 2, but the protection work and retrieving was nothing to brag of AT ALL. After once more surgery about two years later, I tried once more, but I gave up.

But anyway, I think a badly trained dog deserves a chance, (but I would only buy him if I had WorkinDogz to help me retraining. )

[WorkinDogz]

Sometimes gambles pay off; sometimes not.

Sometimes the dog is enough of a dog to bounce back; sometimes the negative imprint is so strong that even the best dog can't overcome it.

You're right Damp...figure the odds of that helper who I watched take a promising dog and pretty much shut him down in a matter of a few training session, work my dogs without major direction (and threats of death..lol)

When the gamble pays off; it's really satifying; when it doesn't....well; someone has a nice, neutered pet.

[German Vanegas]

I concur with most of what has been said already. I personally believe that genetics, primarily, plays a major role in that full hard bite, and then, secondarily, the proper training of the dog by a coordinated team effort of handler and decoy, where the decoy is of vital importance to achieve the best results.

[Urbans]

Retrevier people say that the a hard mouth or soft mouth is "in the blood". I think the same holds true in protection work. And as far retraining a dog with a poor grip I can remember what my dad would say about dogs like this..."You can turn gold to *hit but you can't turn *hit to gold.

[Mick Trainer]

So very hard to say. Depends so much on the dog. I have seen and done it myself were a dog has been totally ruined and then turned around to become good again. It has to be a really good dog though. I have a picture in my head of the dog she described. I would definately take a chance on him/her and I believe a dog of that quality you would get back. It can be hard, slow going but it can be done (sometimes). If you get him cheap enough it would be worth a shot.

For me a worse thing to see than a broken dog (in terms of retraining to get him/her back) is a strong dog locked in prey. These dogs are very hard to retrain as they often have learnt to take such a hard time that they stay in prey no matter what. A dog of this sort is very sad for me.

Mick.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mick Trainer:
... For me a worse thing to see than a broken dog (in terms of retraining to get him/her back) is a strong dog locked in prey. These dogs are very hard to retrain as they often have learnt to take such a hard time that they stay in prey no matter what. A dog of this sort is very sad for me.

Ooooooh Yeeea! I agree 101%