New to forum, looking for local PP trainer

[Omega]

Hello All,
This is my first post, I’m not sure if it belongs here but I didn’t see a general discussion forum so here is where I’ll put it since my question is about training.

My wife and I lost our best friend, Onyx, in the end of March to cancer; she was a beautiful 9 years old Rottweiler.

My wife wasn’t sure she would want to get another dog, but warmed up to the idea pretty quick when I showed her a couple of pics of Rottweiler puppies and is now strongly desires to get another one.

Well now for the good news. I searched for a reputable breeder and found one. I started at the AKC website, that referred me to a several local clubs. I contacted these local clubs and they referred me to several local breeders and one of the breeders got several very positive referrals. Well I called her, and as luck would have it, her bitch is in heat and will mate next week and I’m fairly low on the list for a female. :)

Intro is over, now to get to the point.
I am definitely going to attend obedience school with our new pup, and my final goal is personal protection training if all goes well. With Onyx we just attended the classic pet store parking lot training but is this an acceptable way to start with a dog that the end goal is protection training? Onyx was great off-leash with verbal and non-verbal commands but I was thinking it might be best to train with the same trainer from start to finish.
What are some of your thoughts on this?

Also I’m in the San Diego area, would anyone here have any local trainer referrals that I could follow up on to reach my end goal???

By the way great forum, I’m looking forward to many, many, hours in the next few days of reading to catch up on what is being discussed around here.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Omega

Hello All,
This is my first post, I’m not sure if it belongs here but I didn’t see a general discussion forum so here is where I’ll put it since my question is about training.

My wife and I lost our best friend, Onyx, in the end of March to cancer; she was a beautiful 9 years old Rottweiler.

My wife wasn’t sure she would want to get another dog, but warmed up to the idea pretty quick when I showed her a couple of pics of Rottweiler puppies and is now strongly desires to get another one.

Well now for the good news. I searched for a reputable breeder and found one. I started at the AKC website, that referred me to a several local clubs. I contacted these local clubs and they referred me to several local breeders and one of the breeders got several very positive referrals. Well I called her, and as luck would have it, her bitch is in heat and will mate next week and I’m fairly low on the list for a female. :)

Intro is over, now to get to the point.
I am definitely going to attend obedience school with our new pup, and my final goal is personal protection training if all goes well. With Onyx we just attended the classic pet store parking lot training but is this an acceptable way to start with a dog that the end goal is protection training? Onyx was great off-leash with verbal and non-verbal commands but I was thinking it might be best to train with the same trainer from start to finish.
What are some of your thoughts on this?

Also I’m in the San Diego area, would anyone here have any local trainer referrals that I could follow up on to reach my end goal???

By the way great forum, I’m looking forward to many, many, hours in the next few days of reading to catch up on what is being discussed around here.

Did you buy your puppy from lines that excel in this type of work? Not trying to burst your bubble here, but only a VERY small percentage of rotts have what it takes for true PP.

[Omega]

Well when I asked the local clubs for a referral for a breeder, I asked for companion/protection dogs specifically.

I also made this very clear in my initial conversation with the breeder, that I specifically wanted a companion/protection dogs.

When I was initially speaking with the breeder on the phone she did mention that the parents are Schutzhund-III titled, and invited me up to her place next weekend to view the parents and get into greater detail about the parents.

Also I haven't bought the puppy yet and while I am low on the list I'm not locked into anything yet. The parents are going to mate next week and then I must wait the 63 days for birth, and I was told I can see the puppies as soon as they are born. Then if I like what I see then I can wait the 8 weeks a take a pup home.

Skip, what specifically should I ask for to be sure, or at least be as sure as I can be, that the dog I choose will be suited for personal protection.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Omega

what specifically should I ask for to be sure, or at least be as sure as I can be, that the dog I choose will be suited for personal protection.

ask to see tyhe dogs titles and ask to see there ofa papers for hips and elbows /heart/eyes. ask about the contract and guarentee. ask for the pedigree so you can resurch the ancestry of the dogs you must resurch the lines for health and working abilities (much of this can be done over the internet). ask for referances and contact others that has bought from this breeder. and dont buy from the first breeder you contact resurch many breeders and there lines of dogs as like skip said it is very hard to find one that can do the work..just because the dogs are schutzhund titled doesnt man they will do the work .

[Skip]

[quote=.....
Skip, what specifically should I ask for to be sure, or at least be as sure as I can be, that the dog I choose will be suited for personal protection.[/QUOTE]

Larry gave you some very good info. I would also question why you want one for PP. I guess I'm curious what YOU mean by PP. If you mean a real man-stopper that will fight it out under most any conditions, those are extremely rare (and a tremendous responsibilty for the owner). If you mean a dog that will alert you to strange sounds and will SOUND threatening, that's a lot more obtainable. You also want to buy from a breeder that tries to conform to the rottweiler standard in their breeding program..and also all the other stuff Larry said. If the dog doesn't have the genetics for PP you can ruin an otherwise nice dog by trying to make it into something it can't truly be.

[TopDawG]

You also want to buy from a breeder that tries to conform to the rottweiler standard in their breeding program..

What does this have to do with the working ability or the drive of the dog? How does this in any way reflect if the dog meets your criteria for PP work?

just curious

~TD

[Omega]

First and foremost what I want is a family companion that is friendly, sociable, and very well behaved when I invite someone into our home.

Secondly I want a watchdog and will alert the presence of a person(s) coming onto our property by barking or acting in an agitated manner and will cease the alert on command or reduction of threat. And hopefully that is all our dog will ever need to do. But if/when that person enters the home uninvited and acts in a threatening manner, on command or when my family is in jeopardy I want our dog to put itself between the threat and my family and to try to stop(hold) that person from reaching my family by intimidation, threat, or bitework and will cease the attack/defense on command or reduction of threat.

Most importantly in the unlikely event something like this ever happens, I don’t want a potentially deadly incident to be the first time our dog has been in a human/canine fight, and her be forced to solely rely upon her instincts to get through the incident.

I don’t want is a guard dog that will be left outside like at a gunk yard or something. I don’t want a police or military attack/patrol dog. I just want a dog with some professional training on how to better protect my home and family.

Just to be clear I have no intention of solely relying upon a dog, UBERHUND, to protect my family but rather to be just another link in my chain of defenses with myself being the anchor on the end of the chain.

We bought a home in a nice neighborhood, we have a home security system, we have motion lights outside our home, fences, etc... Our last dog, Onyx, was a great instinctive watchdog but this time I want something more.

Is what I’ve outlined above an unreasonable goal?

I would have figured most if not all Rottweilers, German Shepards, Bullmastiffs, etc from truly good breeding would be able to do such tasks, if not that is where my lack of understanding is coming from.

Also before I’m asked if I’ve talked to the breeder about this, I have not. That is actually why I’m asking here first, so I can learn more about this so I can ask the right questions, intelligent questions, to the breeder and some of the local training clubs in my area.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Omega

I would have figured most if not all Rottweilers, German Shepards, Bullmastiffs, etc from truly good breeding would be able to do such tasks, if not that is where my lack of understanding is coming from.

Not necessarily, and in reality, not as often as you apparently think.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Omega

I just want a dog with some professional training on how to better protect my home and family.

.

live in a nice neighborhood and buy a nice automatic weapon
maybe 1 in 500 rotts can do what you want

[cucciolone]

Originally Posted by Omega

But if/when that person enters the home uninvited and acts in a threatening manner, on command or when my family is in jeopardy I want our dog to put itself between the threat and my family and to try to stop(hold) that person from reaching my family by intimidation, threat, or bitework...

Originally Posted by lblax

maybe 1 in 500 rotts can do what you want

So Larry, you're saying that in this scenario, 499 out of 500 Rottweilers, with bite training, from working lines, will run for cover behind the family, without offering any display of defense at all?

I'm addressing no one in particular here, but I see no reason to try to discourage Omega from exploring the protection angle, to the limits of his future dog's capabilities.

He has already stated: "I have no intention of solely relying upon a dog, UBERHUND, to protect my family but rather to be just another link in my chain of defenses with myself being the anchor on the end of the chain."
He sounds like a sensible and responsible person to me. (Though to my knowledge, he is mistaken about the percentage of dogs strong enough to undertake PP training.)

Omega- have you considered the possibility of training for Schutzhund? The bite work involved may not be as hard-core as that of PP, and it may not prepare a dog for combat with a real, determined adversary, but it should generally raise a dog's confidence in its own defensive strength. And, for example, a bark and hold is taught, which sounds a lot like what you describe as having in mind.

It is also probably easier to find a good Sch. trainer than a good PP trainer, and easier to find a Sch-strength dog than a PP-strength dog.

Just a few thoughts. Good luck!

[lblax]

Originally Posted by cucciolone

So Larry, you're saying that in this scenario, 499 out of 500 Rottweilers, with bite training, from working lines, will run for cover behind the family, without offering any display of defense at all?

!

of course this is not an exact percentage it was put in to open his eyes in all reality maybe 2 from a litter of 8 can do schutzhund protection and to do real pp it drops way from there. just look at the trial scores in a dvg or usa magizine and see where most of the failing scores come from.... sadly they come from our breed... although just the presence of a rott in your home is a good deterant.

[Omega]

Originally Posted by lblax

live in a nice neighborhood and buy a nice automatic weapon
maybe 1 in 500 rotts can do what you want

Cool, a fellow gun owner. I agree, and I don’t understand how anybody can be without a gun and seek out the proper training to use it correctly in less than optimum real world conditions.

Although, a gun is not always the answer, and rarely is it the best answer unless lethal force is absolutely necessary. If the only tool you have is a hammer, all of your problems look like nails. I want more tools in my toolbox than that. I want a multi-layered family security approach.

I did buy a home in a nice low crime neighborhood.
I built a 6’ wood fence around my entire back yard.
I built a low 4’ chain link fence around the front yard.
I installed security (motion) lights on all four sides of the house, and can turn them on/off from a switch in the house.
I have an alarm system with multiple motion sensors and sensors on every exterior door & window.
I keep my cell phone next to the bed to call police in case the phone lines are down or the security system is calling out, my wife also has her own cell phone on her night stand.
I have dedicated firearms for home defense, and my wife and I have both attended profession training for the practical application of lethal force. I also shoot competitively.
And I want a companion/protection dog to replace my lost companion.

I take the security of my family & myself very seriously. I don’t believe I’m at any great personal risk of attack; I’m not a celebrity, I’m not an LEO, and I’m not some rich CEO. But in this day and age everybody is at risk, all we need to do is watch the news to figure that out.

Back To The Topic:
Honestly I have a hard time believing that only 1 in 500 Rotts are capable of this type of training. Now I would believe that if we assemble 500 Rott only 1 or 2 could actually perform these tasks, but only because 1 or 2 handlers/owners actually attended this type of training. But I have a very hard time believing that if you took 500 healthy Rotts that were the result of responsible breeding to competent PP trainers that only 1 would successfully complete the training.

For the sake of conversation lets just accept this 1:500 as fact.
So if only 0.02% of Rotts are actually capable of this training, what specifically are the rest of them not capable of?

The physical demands of such training?
The intelligence to comprehend & recall such training?
The temperament to reliably follow such training?
Their ability to be trusted after developing such skills?
Is it having a handler/owner who is committed enough to work with the animal regularly for fun and practice?
Is it having a handler/owner who is not trusted by the trainer, so they are told their animal is not capable?

What are Rotts capable of, looking black & barking???

[lblax]

temparment /nerve/and take longer to train due to maturity compared to other breeds lets put it this way they are extreamly hard to find if you do enough resurch you just may find one

[Omega]

Originally Posted by cucciolone

He sounds like a sensible and responsible person to me. (Though to my knowledge, he is mistaken about the percentage of dogs strong enough to undertake PP training.)

Omega- have you considered the possibility of training for Schutzhund? The bite work involved may not be as hard-core as that of PP, and it may not prepare a dog for combat with a real, determined adversary, but it should generally raise a dog's confidence in its own defensive strength. And, for example, a bark and hold is taught, which sounds a lot like what you describe as having in mind.

It is also probably easier to find a good Sch. trainer than a good PP trainer, and easier to find a Sch-strength dog than a PP-strength dog.

Just a few thoughts. Good luck!

Thanks for the positive response and the kind words.

In regards to the percentage of dogs strong enough to undertake PP; I didn’t intend to argue the point they all could like I’m an expert. But I was under the impression that the strong dogs like Bullmastiffs, German Shepards, and Rotts that were the result of responsible breeding were capable, for the most part, when they were healthy and within the breed standards. Apparently this was naïve of me, but that is why I’m here, to learn.

I think I may need to consider the possibility of Schutzhund training as I can’t even find a PP club or trainer in my area to even talk to and ask questions; regardless of if my pup will be able or not.

Originally Posted by lblax

of course this is not an exact percentage it was put in to open his eyes in all reality maybe 2 from a litter of 8 can do schutzhund protection and to do real pp it drops way from there.

Why couldn’t you just have said that instead of using exaggerated statistics

But anyway, no harm no foul, thanks for being constructive in your last post. I’m searching far and wide to try to get the best dog I can find.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Omega

....what specifically are the rest of them not capable of?

Courage to the bone, inborn. And what a lot of dog that is.

Welcome to the forums.