At 4 months old what should I be working on for Possible Schutzhund????

[Grumbler]

Hello Friends,
I was bought by Gucci because of his lineage and his parents personality. When I bought Gucci from Chris Miller (Von Tanglewood)my main priorities were Family, Confidence, Friend, Breed Standard, Strong boned and a Rotti that wanted to go for rides, give kisses and be my wifes best friend. I also told her I would like to do work with him if $ and time allowed. This was after losing our beautiful Rotti(Chanel).
Well Gucci was brought to a local Schutzhund club on the suggestion of BostonRott(Gretchen). I believe Gretchen said he has good drive and a good bite. Of course he loved watching the big dogs do bite work and growled while watching...I told him he has plenty of time for that . Gucci's Grandsire is Jenecks Wotan and Jeneck's Bessy. His Grandma(DAM) is Kimba Von Tuefelsbrucke and Grandpa(Dam) is Rick V Burgthann so I believe he has the potential to do Schutzhund?
My questions are:
What type of obedience should I be doing? He is good at sit, stay, not bad at down, and needs work with come. Again he is 4 months old today.
My wife is worried that Shutzhund training will make him bite and we will have to let him bite?...I tell her the sleeve(18 months+) is the only acceptable bite.
Gretchen showed me the basic starting point to show Gucci how to down on the disk for tracking. What should I do for tracking basics at his age?
Thanks in advance for all your help!

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GUCCI'S DAD
Doug

[This message has been edited by ~cosmo (edited August 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ~cosmo (edited August 02, 2000).]

[Fergy]

Socialization and Obedience.

[German Vanegas]

You are being a bit demanding on your puppy. Adjust your expectations realistically to the puppy's age. Be careful, or you may end up killing your dog's spirit.

[Grumbler]

German,
I am greatful for your reply. What exactly do you mean by be demanding? Gucci has picked up his obedience very easily through POSITIVE enforcement. I have not used food and his learning is very natural. Do you feel I should not do anything at this time? Are you saying just let him be a puppy and don't use his intelligence? What do I do to continue his SPIRIT and not break it as you say? Any reading that you suggest?
Hi Fergy, thanks! Yes I have bombarded Gucci with all kinds of people and animals since his arrival on June 13 in Ma. He loves all people especially children.
I am very Green(lacking in knowledge) to Schutzhund so please take the time to be specific. I love to learn.
Thank You

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GUCCI'S DAD
Doug

[WorkinDogz]

Heavens yes...let him be a puppy! Food isn't an "evil" thing in puppy imprinting...in fact...food drive is necessary! (tracking is done with food) Building food drive (via obedience) making them pushy and driving into you is what you WANT.

Puppy imprinting is different from Obedience training per say. Don't be quick to have those sits, downs and stays "perfect" by 6 months.

There's an old saying....you can ALWAYS take "some out" of a dog; but you can NEVER put it back in once it's gone.

Recommended Reading: Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive by Sheila Booth with Gottfried Dildei.

It's not going to matter what lines your dog is out of; and who the sire and dam are if you stifle that drive in puppyhood.

[Grumbler]

Workingdogs,
Thanks for the suggestions. I think I know wwhat you are telling me....Let Gucci be exactly who he is...Confidant, secure, friendly, with good drive(like BostonRott) said.

Now on the other hand how do we balance being a good boy for the family and helping him to grow in spirit for the future? You know what I mean: correction for bad behavior,Growling(food protection), biting,etc? Again, thank you for the referral book Training for Drive.

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GUCCI'S DAD
Doug

[WorkinDogz]

Manner training (as far as taking things away from him and giving them BACK) are one thing. Yes, a SchH dog can be a family dog too.

HOWEVER------

Consider this. In about 1 year; you're going to want your dog to jump on the helper for the bite. Correct? Now...you've spent the last ENTIRE year telling him NOT to jump on visitors, guests blah blah blah....

See any inconsistancy?

Personally..I ENCOURAGE my dogs to jump on me and my "dog friends" know the value of allowing my dogs to jump on THEM.

Again...what you do NOW shapes what your dog does later. There is a very fine line. Careful not to cross it.

Now I'm not saying "allow your dog to maul every school friend your children bring home"....but be aware that the "perfect pet" has some drawbacks in sport. Almost takes some reconditioning.

[Grumbler]

Wow,
I guess you opened up a PART I did not see. My little boy must be allowed to do unacceptable behavior; jump, bite,growl and whatever else. If I stop these behaviors while he is growing up I probably will take away the spirit he needs to have to do Schutzhund? Now I can see why my wife is nervous. She was talking to alot of the club members last Saturday and they must have told her that certain behaviors have to be overlooked for Schutzhund. NOW I AM REALLY CONFUSED. Is this why most Schutzhund dogs are kenneled? My main priority is the family pet, with doing some work with him second. I guess I need to do plenty of asking questions and reading? Can a loyal family pet Rotti do Schutzhund? That is the question. Then the next step would be how is it done?

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GUCCI'S DAD
Doug

[WorkinDogz]

I want you to show me where I said you should allow your dog to bite, growl, jump "and whatever else".

I'm looking at 5 SchH dogs right now Grumbler..and I'm not outside at the "kennel".

I was MERELY pointing out that you can't TRAIN your dog to be a perfect little gentleman and then expect him to "abandon" that training and conditioning just because he has some SchH dogs in his pedigree!

Others will be better able to advise you.

[German Vanegas]

Thanks Workingdogz, excellent replies

Grumbler,
At four months of age your puppy is just a baby. We have to let puppies go throughout the different growing stages of puppyhood, rearing and training them accordingly. If you instill demanding discipline on a very young pup, even with positive methods, the pup's spirit may deteriorate to the point of slavery responses, due to the impossition of such early extreme obedience commands and expected submission when the pup still is too young. A dog without a free spirit is a robot.

Who said raising a child is easy?... the same applies to puppies. Patience and realistic expetactions play an important factor. Food for thought

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited August 02, 2000).]

[Argos]

Grumbler, I am at about the same stage as you. Cody is 6 months, and I am also curious about doing Schutzhund with him. My breeder is also a trainer, and he recommends just as German and Workindogz to let the puppy be a puppy until he is a year old. We do fun things to build drive. Lots of play time with balls, tugging, things like that to build prey drive. We do basic obedience, but I don't use any strong correction at this point. This doesn't mean I don't tell him NO when he misbehaves, I just have to be careful what I correct.

If he starts to chew the furniture or something, I tell him no, but I immediately praise him for obeying. I don't tell him no if he becomes fixed on something I have in my hands because he is going into prey drive. I have to be careful what I do to be sure I don't correct him and crush his prey drive. One of the things he goes crazy over are brushes when we groom. He wants them out of my hands so bad he can't stand it. So, I put him in a down stay while I brush and reward him with letting him play with the brush when we are done. He absolutely loves it.

Tracking is a good thing to work on to prepare for schutzhund at this stage. You can lay out a track of food with his favorite toy at the end. Let him play and praise a lot when he stays on track and finds the toy. This builds confidence and strengthens the exercise. It is also fun for him, so he will learn more quickly.

Prey drive is probably the most important thing you want to work on right now. Simple games like fetch and tug will build this quickly. Be sure to let the dog win every time when playing tug, or you will destroy his confidence. A strong nerved, confident dog with high prey drive I believe is a good base to begin schutzhund, but when you do get ready to begin, your dog should be evaluated by a good trainer. Just because he has the necessary confidence and drives doesn't mean he may be right for shutzhund. The right temperament is paramount.

[damp]

WorkinDogz and German, I agree
I have a 5 months old pup. My way of training a pup for future SchH is NO TRAINING (except tracking and building up his drives)
He doesn’t know sit, down or other commands, pulls on the leash when we walk down the street. You see, I have many years to teach him these commands.
My pup is a allowed to be a pup!!

[Grumbler]

Hello Again,
Workingdogz you did not say these things others have in mere conversation. This comes through my lack of knowledge but my drive to learn about Schutzhund. I guess almost everything I was taught regarding a pet ia a lot different than Schutzhund. Regarding control for obedience and like you said making him into a slave robot.
I do understand what you are all telling me...let Gucci be who he is and help him build more confidance in his young age not shut it down by doing lots of obedience and lots of confidence breaking in correcting. I did pick up Susan Barwigs book Schutzhund Theory at the library.
I appreciate all your suggestions and your love for our Rottis. Keep it coming. I appreciate you all

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GUCCI'S DAD
Doug

[poncho]

Here is what I have gotten from this thread:

Give your dog as much freedom as possible, when and where it can be done safely. In other words just let them be a dog/puppy, master them yes, but over master them and they will not respect you, they might even spite you (spite is that the word I'm looking for?)Thusly creating a mechanical slave who has no respect for there master creating a danger, when what you want is a willing comrade who loves and respects you and the game.....

When I first started coming here I thought the only way to develop a good Sch. was to start from a puppy. I have a pound rott and thought if I trained her in the bite aspects, I would risk looseing her sweet gentle pet nature. So we have been working with a trainer doing everything else but bite work. My trainer and you guy's have convinced me otherwise. By takeing things slow and threw obedience I feel I'm developing a mutual respect for our relationship. Doing so,I believe we are building the foundation to make sch. just a "game" and not a "drive". Creating a pet that will lick you to death but put you down on the ground if told to do so.

could have written this better but I'm still at work got a call waiting.

poncho

[Chymag]

Grumbler,

Hi , As you know Magnum has no Ob training, he does sit, come when he is called,walks excetably on leash, and has house manners. He is not allowed to do whatever he wants.
Beleive me when I say that I thought this was crazy when we first started out. I almost didnt except the no obedience until I started going by myself. I got to know people a little better and started asking questions about Kenny. I thought two of the guys were going to choke when I asked them my second night alone if he had ever taken a dog from Pup to SchH3. Hey its one of the questions you are suppose to ask about your helper.

My suggestion to you is to call him, I will give you the number if you dont have it, he will answer your questions, he will give you his opinion, help you decide if this is right for you and tell you how to procede. No offence to anyone one this forum, but he will be your helper, he is who you need to talk to, and reading some of these posts just now have reassured me that he is following the right path.

I would also like to add that I am probably to blame for your wifes uncertainty as far as the "biting" behavior goes, so let me clear this up. Magnum does not "bite" me all the time, mostly when he cant have my undivided attention, like when Im on the computer, the arm is at the perfect level. He has never broken skin, he isnt doing this out of anger, maybe a little frustration, but mostly because he is a big pain . Seriously, he is a super sweet dog, loves everyone, an all around happy guy, he even thinks "bad boy" is a good thing. Now that I have taught him to give kisses, the mouthing isnt so bad, and dont think that I dont get him going sometimes. I in no way think that he is going to go out and bite someone and I do not think that by SchH training him that he will go out and do that either, it is a sport, I will send you the email Boston sent me and it will help to clear that part up.

We also do not kennel our dogs and with the exception of the prision dogs neither are any of the other dogs. They are pets, even the police dogs ( who are not pets) go home with their partners every night. Yes we crate them while we are at the feild because it is the safest thing for them, but otherwise my dogs sleep in my bed. And Im more than sure we arent the only ones. I think what your wife may have misunderstood was that we put up with certain behaivior for a period of time, not forever. You saw FRoli, and if you didnt watch her this week, she comes out onto the field with no leash. Her obedience is very good, better than the majority of dogs you see out in the parks and on the street. She is a pet, yes with a lot of work behind her but still approchable, and pettable, as are almost all the dogs there.

To be able to work a dog in Schutzhund you have to have a stable, confident, and Friendly dog, you are not creating the monster that the public, most of which can even pronounce the word, thinks. You are creating a dog that is obedient and less likley to bite. As Boston put it to me, "No sleeve, No threat, No bite". ( sorry, forgot to add that she said this was for 99% of them) There is never a 100% garrentee in anything.

[This message has been edited by Chymag (edited August 02, 2000).]