First Novice trial for rottie with sloppy sit due to structural problems

[k&s]

I have enterred both of my rotties in an upcoming Novice (B) obedience trial. One is a bit of a mess physicaly, and because of this he has an extremely sloppy sit (such as when he is sitting a bit crooked on my left side in almost heel position, his right leg can actually be wrapped behind me and sticking out to my right, if you can picture such a thing). He also takes a fairly long time to sit while he adjusts himself. Unless his joints are acting up, he is not in pain as long as I let him sit sloppily and take a bit of time to get into a comfortable sit.

I don't really care about getting points knocked off for the sits, but I would like to see if we can earn a qualifying score, and mainly I just want to see how well we can do. However, I do not want the judge to think that he is in pain. (I am prepared not to show if any of his joints are acting up prior to the trial). Do I say something to the steward prior to the trial? (e.g. "Just want to let you know that he has a very sloppy sit but he is not in any pain"), or do I just go for it and see what happens?

[Judi W]

Absolutely do not say anything.

If the dog is lame, the judge has no option but to excuse it. Reasons make no difference. The reason you do not want to say anything is that it might cause the judge to scrutinize the dog more closely.

Judges are not blind and believe me, they recognize a structural problem but as long as the dog is not lame, it is simply a matter of points. I would suggest giving your choice of pain med, one the night before and one or half one in the morning.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Is it fair or humane to push an animal who is in pain or may be in pain due to known structural problems..into competitions. I am shocked that this is done......this sure doesn't ring true with being fair and honest to the dog.

[Judi W]

The dog is not jumping or doing anything excessive. Novice obedience has less walking that a trip around the block. Even dogs with HD need to move around to keep muscle tone and they need a live to keep mind tone.

[k&s]

I need to keep this dog going to class for socialization purposes etc., but I am very careful with him as far as any lameness. We have spent many classes with him in a down stay or just hanging around as the other dogs walk around and do the more active training.

His sloppy sit and slow sit are due to structural problems but I can tell this is not due to pain most of the time. I even have a feeling I can push him into fast and almost correct sits, but I don't go down that road with him just in case it bothers him.

His joints sometimes become inflamed, and then he limps and I know for sure he is not feeling well enough to train or trial (or to play with my other rottie, for that matter). I keep a good lookout for any hint of soreness and if I see any he is not trained in the things that bother him, but we might still attend class jjust for the exposure to other dogs. (I might work on attention exercises that do not require him to move around at all).

As Judi W indicated, the Novice obedience is not at all challenging physically. However, for this dog it tends to be the many sits (and getting up from a sit) that are repeated in class that are a problem when he is not feeling well. so, I am very sensitive to how he is doing physically and when he is sore we don't do anything that might bother him.

[Ilovemypuppy]

k&s.....you sound like a very responsible and caring Rottie owner, I was just very concerned with advice to give pain killers in order to get a performance, that would otherwise be painful to the dog. Under the influence of pain killers, the dog might perform 'better', but at what cost. If the dog cannot feel the pain, it could over extend itself and end up in more pain and I know you don't want that.

Aspirin has the same problems in dogs that it has in people. It can cause gastrointestinal upsets and ulcers if the GI signs are ignored. It can cause renal failure if overdosed. It causes an increase in clotting time. There are , of course, times when there are no alternatives, but I don't think showing is one of those.

Limiting your dog to things that can be done comfortably, at his own pace, but still conditioning him and giving him experience is wise and responsible.

I have a dog with structural problems and I have to be careful not to over exercise her and play carefully with her. Throwing things to be retrieved is bad for her because of the sudden jolting stops before she gets to the object thrown, so we don't do that. I do stay out with her to play and let her kind of self regulate how she plays..that works well.

I supplement her diet with glucosame and fish oil and have seen a marked improvement in her range of motion and her recovering time, if she does get too rambunctuous.

Here's the supplement I am using...might be a big help for your pup
:)
http://www.activexamerica.com/pets/

[Judi W]

Anti-inflamatories are standard for arthritis whether the dog is walking around a ring or around the house. They promote healing and the settling down of inflamation as well as comfort. I consider it inhumane to withhold based on some misguided idea that being in pain is good. Pain after a surgery to encourage rest is one thing, but the cronic pain that can occur with arthitis should be controlled as much as possible. And what indeed is wrong to assure that the dog can do a routine that he enjoys and has worked for as comfortably as possible? What kind of owner puts a dog in the position of lying around doing nothing when simple palative medication and add comfort, activity and meaning to his life?

I have had dogs with similar problems in my training classes. We do not push for the sits and some simply stand during their heeling routine. That is perfectly OK. In competition, a no sit is points only as long as the dog has given at least one sit during the routine. The pride and satisfaction for both dog and owner at a job well done is wonderful to see. The HD dogs that I know live longer and happier lives when given purpose and physically they are improved with exercise to build muscle tone. Any arthritis sufferer is recommended to exercise as it improves blood flow and flexibility. Any Rottweiler benefits from being allowed to work even with limitations.

[k&s]

Thanks again for your thoughts on this. ILOVEMYPUPPY: I understand your concern. At this point I give the antiinflammatant sparingly, just as much as is needed. I don't give him more just because we are going to a class, and then work him hard. But I try to find a balance so that he has some reasonable activity. And, as Judi W said, the work is very good for his mind, and giving some antiinflammatant so that he can be somewhat active may be necessary from time to time.

I do give hm fish oil and used to give glucosamine, but now give adequan shots, which helps the OCD. His current lameness seems related to an inflammation around one joint in particular.

[Ilovemypuppy]

k&s : Best Wishes with your dog..I feel sure you will do what's best for him. Sometimes I think we can be guilty of putting human emotions on dogs thinking they enjoy something more than they actually do and it's really us who want it. But each person knows their dog better than anyone else.

We only really guess sometimes whether they are in pain and how much...again a judgement call...even vets aren't sure in many cases.

Chemical anti-inflammatories DO NOT heal anything or repair anything..they do decrease inflammation and they are hard on the liver.

I do exercise and train with my girl who has structural problems..she doesn't just 'lay around' but I am careful to regulate the training (including dance and agility(flat elements) so that she doesn't get over extended. Homeopathic arnica is good and safe to use for sore joints or muscles.

[Judi W]

I said it was standard practice to use anti-inflamatories for a dog with arthritis.

"Anti-inflamatories are standard for arthritis whether the dog is walking around a ring or around the house. "

If you wish to continue to accuse this owner of cruelty, go ahead. I doubt you will find a great deal of agreement, but it might make you feel good.

[Ilovemypuppy]

I am not accusing k&s of cruelty in ANY way...but, Judi...if it's that important for you to have the last word and to always to right...........then...whatever floats your boat!

[Burnsway]

Actually I don't think she was getting the last word in. I think she was replying to the remark you so conveniently removed from your last post. Since I saw that remark I will chime in that just because ones dog has a health fault doesn't mean that they shouldn't show. A lot of people show for fun, not for breeding, and to make such a remark as the one you did also led me to believe you were making another in u window on him pushing his dog for show purposes.

Good Luck K & S and let us know how it goes.....;)

[lblax]

it sounds to me like the op keeps a very close eye on her dog and is not harming him in any way

[fbkeays]

Originally posted by Ilovemypuppy
Is it fair or humane to push an animal who is in pain or may be in pain due to known structural problems..into competitions. I am shocked that this is done......this sure doesn't ring true with being fair and honest to the dog.

I am a firm believer in you can't make a rottweiler do what it doesn't want to do. Rotts think too much to let this happen. They are not golden retrievers or collies.
I have a girl that I have tried to retire several times, but she wants to work. If we don't work, then she gets distructive (I can show you a few walls and some furnture). I have been known to give her ascriptin. I have also been known to pull her 5 minutes before her turn after travelling 2 hours and waiting 2 hours for her turn.
She has moderate ED and has had one TPLO surgery already. She told me when it hurt her too much to continue herding. She told me that she couldn't drive single any more about a month before going for her CX title. I paired her up with a nice strong male and we did team instead. She has lymphoma now and do you know what? We are now training for utility and I have even entered her in a trial in Feb.
If you think I am being mean and cruel by "making" her do this, then you have never had a real working rottweiler. It would be unfair to her if we didn't.

[Cassandra]

I am a firm believer in you can't make a rottweiler do what it doesn't want to do.

That I disagree with. My first girl so loved and cherished me she would do anything I asked. No matter how she felt. I never realized the pain she must have been in when she was finally diagnosed with Osteo. She never showed it until it was too late. She never once hesitated answering any of my commands.

Because of her loyalty and the extent I know these incredible animals will go to for their humans, I now scrutinize my current pup that more closely to ensure that I do not ask for more than she should give me.