Definition of "jamming" a dog?

[Pumacat]

I heard some helpers talking and the talked about "jamming" someone's dog at a trial and that they felt bad.

Its obviously something they do on accident. But I havent quite figured out what it means.

Could someone please clarify? Thanks

[lblax]

Originally posted by Pumacat
Its obviously something they do on accident. But I havent quite figured out what it means.

Could someone please clarify? Thanks

sadly its not always done on accident...it would be way easier to show then to explain..but you can visualize the dog coming in for the bite and instead of catching in a smooth motion the helper makes a quick sharp movemant of the sleeve to the dog thus jamming the neck.. i know this is over symplified but thats whats happens

[Pumacat]

so does this mean that the dog is injurred? or does it just make it so that the bite doesnt look good?

[lblax]

Originally posted by Pumacat
so does this mean that the dog is injurred? or does it just make it so that the bite doesnt look good?

dogs can be seriously injured this way

[Judi W]

And I saw a pretty nice Pittie get permanent damage that way. Needless to say he did not work again.

[laurlitt]

This is done way more by accident than intentionally. Jamming a dog does not have to be a movement of the sleeve toward the dog at all. More often it is simply not going with the momentum of the dog when he makes the grip on the sleeve. If the helper stands there like a wall, with no 'give', it will jam the dog. The helper must absorb and re-direct the momentum of the dog.

Ken(Laurie's husband).

[jasonfarrish]

Originally posted by laurlitt
This is done way more by accident than intentionally. Jamming a dog does not have to be a movement of the sleeve toward the dog at all. More often it is simply not going with the momentum of the dog when he makes the grip on the sleeve. If the helper stands there like a wall, with no 'give', it will jam the dog. The helper must absorb and re-direct the momentum of the dog.

Ken(Laurie's husband).

Yes exactly what she said. Jamming is common in KNPV and schutzhund.....almost non existant in the Ring sports we are much better decoys ;)

[Doug Wendling]

Yes exactly what she said. Jamming is common in KNPV and schutzhund.....almost non existant in the Ring sports we are much better decoys

I love this stuff! I know you are trying to make this post sound like you are kidding around? But, the fact of the matter is most of the time when this is done it is to get a point across and leave yourself room to back out when you piss someone off..........

This goes the same way of the age old argument this sport is better then that sport. They are all dog sports and they all have strong points and weak points. They all have something that makes one unique over the others. Now, you are doing it with the "helpers, decoys, bad guys, etc.," whatever you want to call them.

This has done nothing to answer his post. To go to the quote above the big difference is the rules. In Ring once you get beyond the Ring 1 the decoy is to try to esquive the dog making the dog miss the bite. Although I have seen it happen it is difficult to jam a dog when you are trying to make him miss. I have seen this with a very well trained dog that goes for say the leg you are pivoting on and now he has you with the leg that is firmly planted, unless you are good at what you are doing now you have jammed the dog. Plus in Ring, most dogs are taught not to "fly" into the bite, because of the decoys job to esquive the dog. So, they are trained to stay on the ground slow down and follow the decoy into his move and make the bite. A high flying rocket fast KNPV or SchH dog would be so easy to esquive anyone could do this!

In KNPV the decoys job is to continue to move forward into the hit. In my opinion it is the hardest on the dog physically. The decoy must hit the dog with a stick (I am not sure on the measurement of the stick) before the dog makes the bite, which usually breaks the stick across the dogs back and then continue forward into the dog. Many dogs are jammed in KNPV, but this is part of their sport, a hard hitting dog with an equally hard hitting decoy. They are not to run over the dogs, (but you try to do all these things while facing a dog that is coming at you straight on and fast) but it happens that they catch the dog and the momentum of each other causes for some crazy crashes!

In SchH, the job of the helper is to catch the dog frontally, (note I said frontally, more often then not helpers learn this side step thing, then they are no longer frontally) and absorb the hit with a twist of the body and get the dog onto the ground and put him into a drive.
In my opinion the "side step" of many SchH helpers is what gets them into trouble. Dogs follow movement, (which is one of the things that makes Ring a great sport the dogs follow the decoys movement which makes the esquives not so easy) anyway if the helper in SchH does a little side step just before the catch and the dog stays on the ground the dog will more then likely follow the help right into his move and jam him anyway. So, the helper is trying to get out of the dogs way, but because of the dogs style of staying on the ground the dog catches him in his move and bang!
If the side stepping helper does this with a fast flying dog and they decide which way they are going to take him and make their side step move and the dog launches that way then you have a real bang!
Jamming occurs from many things, the helper side stepping, the helpers has the wrong foot position at the moment of the catch, or some helpers may purposely do this, I must say this does not happen often.

Jamming of dogs happens in every sport, and it can happen to some very good helpers at times. All these sports are contact sports, so their is going to be some physical harm to the dogs over an extended period of time, just like a football player, the body can only take so much pounding. I take my hat off to any "helper, decoy, bad guy," whatever you want to call them in whatever sport because it is a thankless job at times, you can work 100+ dogs in one trial and mess up on only once and that is the one many people remember.

Doug

[lblax]

Originally posted by laurlitt
This is done way more by accident than intentionally. Jamming a dog does not have to be a movement of the sleeve toward the dog at all. More often it is simply not going with the momentum of the dog when he makes the grip on the sleeve. If the helper stands there like a wall, with no 'give', it will jam the dog. The helper must absorb and re-direct the momentum of the dog.

Ken(Laurie's husband).

exactly ...well said...and doug nice to......
and as far as this statemant by jason

Jamming is common in KNPV and schutzhund.....almost non existant in the Ring sports we are much better decoys

we can say bull???? on a family forum right????????

[Skip]

Originally posted by jasonfarrish
Yes exactly what she said. Jamming is common in KNPV and schutzhund.....almost non existant in the Ring sports we are much better decoys ;)

In my thread "What about Mals" you stated something about how petty is it to put down one area to make something else look better...

[RottiMomCT]

Originally posted by Skip
In my thread "What about Mals" you stated something about how petty is it to put down one area to make something else look better...

HELLO PEOPLE...this was meant as a JOKE...hence the WINKING smiley at the end of the message...jeez...let's get a little MORE uptight about stuf, why don't we?

I mean, CRIPES...ya'll bust your butts for your dogs, ya'll do it iin different forums...ya'll have good darned reason to be proud of and defend your respective sports...but to go getting all snippity towards other forum members cuz ya'll can't figure out what sarcasm is (meant in typed fashion by the use of 'emoticons' such as the wink and the big smile), than ya'll are just too damned sensitive!

Now, this may not be MY place to post this, but since the original post's question has been answered (and quite well I might add), let's just let this one slowly fade away...no need to go arguing all over the place and having tantrums...agreed?
:) :)

OK, flame suit donned...as if it'll help...can't wait for the replies to this one...

[jasonfarrish]

It was meant as a joke and I do schutzhund helper work usually twice a week.

But if your gonna get all snotty then yes Ring AND KNPV are better then schutzhund so there. ;)

Oh and in PSA we do full out KNPV style courage tests, like the stick attack, and so I know how to absorb a rocket to the shoulder...

[Doug Wendling]

Anne
Sounds like ya'll may have a sensitivity problem? :)

Doug

[Doug Wendling]

Jason
I have been involved in NAPD, PSA, K9 Pro Sports, whatever from the start, so you are not teaching me anything new here. And I have work those trails as a decoy from the begining of their respective sports. I must say I have yet to see anyone do a real KNPV style courage test. Yes, the dogs may be caught on the front of the suit, etc., but that is where the similarity ends. I know Joe and Jerry, I know what they want to see in a trial, but to compare that to a actual KNPV courage test?

Doug

[jasonfarrish]

Compare only in terms of potentially jamming the dog.

KNPV is to severe an impact in my opinion an opinion made even stronger now that my pups full belly brother was killed in a recent KNPV tial in Holland from a broken kneck.

Look I love schutzhund and all the dog sports dont take a little joke as a grave insult everyone. All of us decoys rib eachother all the time.