Newbie Shutzund question

[Stubby]

OK, a couple of weeks ago I have TJ "tested" to see whether or not he had enough drive to try ScH. This was at the club in the training area where TJ has been doing OB for the last 5 or 6 weeks. He had great drive and we agreed to try out TJ in the sport.

Last weekend was his first class in the field. This is outdoors on a hydro line field.

Well, TJ did fine on the tracking and OB stuff. But, when we got to the bite work part, he basically hid behind me.. Didn't want anything to do with the jute at all. He was pulling to get away from the agitator. The best we could get him to do was get him to play a bit of tug on a rag..
In class with the jute he couldn't wait to get hold of it. And when the trainer used the whip to see how he would behave, he actually started to walk towards the whip.. no backing off..


My question is:
Do you feel that this was a situational type of thing, and that TJ was just uncomfortable with his surroundings as this was all new to him??
Is there anything I can do at home to help him through this?

[TrinityRun]

How old is the dog?

[Stubby]

TJ is ~ 18 months.

This is my newest rescue and I've had him for about 3 months now.

[samanthac]

Depends on what kind of drive. A dog can have great prey drive but no fight or defense drive. My bitch has fairly decent prey drive, but no fight/defense drive. She's been tested for SchH and had the same reaction during the bite work. She just kept looking at me like she did not know what she was supposed to do. My male is another story.

I've been told that in order to have a successful SchH dog, the dog needs to have the proper balance of prey and fight/defense drives. I've been told that the desired balance is 70% prey and 30% fight/defense.

Even if you can't do bite with your dog, you can do tracking and OB. DVG clubs, which recognize that not all dogs are capable of nor do all owners want to participate in bitework, offer both Tracking I, II and III titles as well as OB I, II and III titles based on the SchH i, II and III routines. DVG is sanctioned by the ADRK as well.

HTH!

[Stubby]

Originally posted by samanthac
Depends on what kind of drive. A dog can have great prey drive but no fight or defense drive. My bitch has fairly decent prey drive, but no fight/defense drive. She's been tested for SchH and had the same reaction during the bite work. She just kept looking at me like she did not know what she was supposed to do. My male is another story.HTH!

Thanks for that info Samantha..
The thing that I'm stumped about though is why he would do it in the club, but not on the field..

I'm not going to force him though. If he doesn't want to do bite work, then we do tracking and OB :)

[Diamond Dog]

I think it would be hard for anyone on this board to tell you if it was situational or not. There are some great people on here that obviously are world class, but even for them, it would be hard to make a determination without seeing your dog or constant communication on every detail of your training and your dogs reaction and you may leave out stuf or intrepret things incorrectly. And take the advice you get on this board with a grain of salt. Beware of people that have no titles or BH's giving you all kinds of advice. Including me (I only have a BH so far). These people seem to love to spout off yet they don't have any titles.
However the advice of the poster who gave you all the options outside of protection work sounds like good advice to me.


Is your trainer willing to continue to work with you in the protection phase to make an evaluation over some time or are you "out" now as far as protection. I don't know if you can make an accurate evaluation after just one training session.

You may want to get the opinions of some other trainers if this trainer deemed your dog not able to do the protection work. Just make sure they are qualified to make those kind of evaluations. And keep in mind that trainers love to discredit other thrainers and their methods.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Diamond Dog
And take the advice you get on this board with a grain of salt. Beware of people that have no titles or BH's giving you all kinds of advice. Including me (I only have a BH so far). These people seem to love to spout off yet they don't have any titles.

:D

[Stubby]

Originally posted by Diamond Dog
Is your trainer willing to continue to work with you in the protection phase to make an evaluation over some time or are you "out" now as far as protection. I don't know if you can make an accurate evaluation after just one training session.

You may want to get the opinions of some other trainers if this trainer deemed your dog not able to do the protection work. Just make sure they are qualified to make those kind of evaluations. And keep in mind that trainers love to discredit other thrainers and their methods.

Yes, we will continue with the protection work, as it was really his first time in that environment. The trainer suggested that it may just be that he was a bit stressed with the new environment. But, I just want to know what others think of this, and whether I'm "barking up the wrong tree"

And I hear you about trainers dis'ing other trainers. I went through this in finding the trainer I'm with now.

[samanthac]

Originally posted by Stubby
Yes, we will continue with the protection work, as it was really his first time in that environment. The trainer suggested that it may just be that he was a bit stressed with the new environment. But, I just want to know what others think of this, and whether I'm "barking up the wrong tree"

And I hear you about trainers dis'ing other trainers. I went through this in finding the trainer I'm with now.

Yes, it really takes more than one session by an expereinced trainer/helper to evaluate whether the dog is cut out for the bitework. Also note, that dogs can go flat for a day here and there or a period of time and then snap out of it. Listen to your trainer. They can see and evaluate your dog unlike us! They will give you the best advice! ;)

Good luck and keep us up to date! :)

[Homerhomer]

Out of curiousity which club are you going to and who is the trainer?

[Stubby]

It's out in Pickering area.

Gemini K9 is the name of the school / club..
Chris Rollox is the owner.

[Mattweiser]

first question:

what is a hydro line field?

as for the dog, I would in no way take his 1st exposure to the "work" as a measure of his character.

an 18 month old Rottweiler male is about the same as a 9-12 month old shepherd male : AKA child!!

he is not mentally mature, but... big but, his defense is already mature.... meaning that your dog percieved everything through the eyes of a child, but with the ability to fear....

give him a few more chances with it.... having said that, there is nothing wrong with him only playing with a rag.

when you say jute, what exactly do you mean? are we talking a jute tug, or a sleeve?

for a dog's 1st encounter with work, I would be working them with a soft tug/rag, on a long line, so that the decoy is away from the dog... this helps the dog be at ease and focus on the toy, not the man (which I am assuming is what the dog was doing, hence the hiding)...

dogs aren't typicaly afraid of jute!!!:)

another question.. and a very important one: is this helper well versed in the training of Rottweilers in SchH??

I ask because many fewer trainers than you would think have successfully trained a Rottweiler in SchH... especially in regards to their "puppy" training.. which is what you are dealing with..

make no mistake about his age (in working terms)... you are dealing with a puppy, and should be doing puppy drive building type activities...

the biggest problem that beginning SchH people face is dealing with a decoy that has never dealt with Rottweilers before, or even worse, one that has trained older Rottweilers, but never realized the amount of time that a Rotti is a puppy!!

[TrinityRun]

First and foremost, you must be working with a good helper - one who is adept at reading dogs and Rottweilers in particular. You said the dog’s obedience and tracking were coming along super. This is also with the same trainer? You also don’t have the benefit of knowing what the dog’s foundation was like as a puppy and it does play a factor in this. The experience of being outdoors, and being tested on his own can be stressful to the young dog as is evidenced by your dog going around behind
you and attempting to leave the field. You did manage to get the dog to do some work with the rag though and that’s good. Building up the prey drive, giving him the bite and allowing him to quickly carry it off the field is important. He leaves there with a good impression and more confidence then when he first stepped on the field. That’s the idea. Hopefully, next time he will show more interest and confidence.

In the end, only the helper can tell you whether or not the dog is going to make it in the protection phase and this is why it’s important to ask him questions that concern you. Ask him what he saw, what he thinks. Like you said, if he doesn’t appear to have what it takes and he isn’t having fun, then sticking with the A and B phases is fine. The important thing is you are doing something with your dog that both you and he enjoy.

Side note: Good training begets good training. In the SchH community it is sought after and revered. It’s why people attend many seminars and attend workshops, spend a lot of money and time getting there. It's why clubs bring in top trainers. No one way of training fits every situation or dog. You pull from these seminars what you feel will work with your training style and your dog. Good trainers acknowledge, respect and speak highly of one another. They understand their base of knowledge is ever expanding and it’s the sharing of that which ultimately makes them better trainers and handlers themselves. This camaraderie is what the sport is all about.

That said, Schutzhund is unlike any sport I know. It takes a certain kind of dog. It takes a certain kind of handler, a very good club and one huge commitment from all. It’s a very demanding sport mentally and physically and one that brings forth the extreme highs and lows of training.

*It’s not at all uncommon for first timers to unknowingly ruin their first or second dogs. Buy the wrong dog. Hook up with the wrong trainers because they are too inexperienced to know bad
training when they see it. Good clubs are scarce.

*It’s not uncommon to wait years to get into a good club as most have a cap on membership.

*It’s not uncommon to find a club, only to learn they refuse to work any breed other than Mals or Shepherds.

*It’s not uncommon for injuries that take seconds to occur, to knock the puppy you’ve raised for the last 3 years out of the sport for life. (And then do what with him or her? Sell them?) People have to be realistic about how many dogs they can keep, yet can’t compete with - those dogs deserve to live out their natural life with you. Anyone can run out and buy an 18 mo old dog who has been started. But some folks choose to raise or breed their own and that takes time. (read years)

*It’s not uncommon for training to be impeded while breedings take place, litters are raised or work/family life demands more attention.

*It’s also not uncommon for people to have trained and titled numerous dogs only to not understand how they got there. Some people are there only to title - they follow directions/instructions well. They don’t care to learn what drives the dog, or why they do what they do. Some are capable of only grasping the surface of what motivates the dog, how to read the dog. They show up for training and that's the extent of it.

Time and experience has helped me form these opinions. There is something to learn from all kinds of people in this sport - from really bad trainers and handlers to the best of the best. What is important for people to understand is nothing is as simple as just saying if the person/dog was any good, they’d have a ****load of titles. That follows the same principle of believing a scorebook tells you everything you need to know about a dog’s working ability. It’s just not that simple.

Understanding dogs is a process and I have yet to meet anyone worth listening to who claimed they knew it all. What impresses me is someone who obviously has the desire to practice what they preach, forming their opinions based on their own experiences, trial and error - not just something they read or overheard.

Each dog we work is a learning experience. Schutzhund takes years to see results. It takes a certain kind of fortitude to stick with a sport that requires so much from you and seemingly gives so little. Especially when your efforts (titling) could be achieved much sooner and in greater number in an easier venue. In the end, what we learn from this sport cannot be defined by a title alone.

[Stubby]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
first question:

what is a hydro line field?

Yes it was.. There are a number of them where I live and I often take TJ (like every day) to play in the open fields near the hydro lines..

Originally posted by Mattweiser

as for the dog, I would in no way take his 1st exposure to the "work" as a measure of his character.

an 18 month old Rottweiler male is about the same as a 9-12 month old shepherd male : AKA child!!

he is not mentally mature, but... big but, his defense is already mature.... meaning that your dog percieved everything through the eyes of a child, but with the ability to fear....

So, you mean he has a high flight drive?????

Originally posted by Mattweiser
give him a few more chances with it.... having said that, there is nothing wrong with him only playing with a rag.

when you say jute, what exactly do you mean? are we talking a jute tug, or a sleeve?

for a dog's 1st encounter with work, I would be working them with a soft tug/rag, on a long line, so that the decoy is away from the dog... this helps the dog be at ease and focus on the toy, not the man (which I am assuming is what the dog was doing, hence the hiding)...

dogs aren't typicaly afraid of jute!!!:)

Yes, the "jute" Is basically a long soft cynlinder about the diamter of a forearm, on a long line. This is what he had NO problem with in the club environment, but shyed away from it on the field. At home I use a tug rope to play with him and he will hold onto that while I swing him in the air...

Originally posted by Mattweiser

another question.. and a very important one: is this helper well versed in the training of Rottweilers in SchH??

I ask because many fewer trainers than you would think have successfully trained a Rottweiler in SchH... especially in regards to their "puppy" training.. which is what you are dealing with..

make no mistake about his age (in working terms)... you are dealing with a puppy, and should be doing puppy drive building type activities...

the biggest problem that beginning SchH people face is dealing with a decoy that has never dealt with Rottweilers before, or even worse, one that has trained older Rottweilers, but never realized the amount of time that a Rotti is a puppy!! [/b]

Actually the club owner was doing the helper work, and he has 2 dogs, a Rott and a Doberman. Both are ScHh.

You mention puppy drive building activities. What would you suggest? Are these things I can do at home.??

[Storm]

Originally posted by Diamond Dog
I think it would be hard for anyone on this board to tell you if it was situational or not. And take the advice you get on this board with a grain of salt. These people seem to love to spout off .................sounds like good advice to me.

You may want to get the opinions of some other trainers............... And keep in mind that trainers love to discredit other thrainers and their methods.

Why even bother replying? There is a ton to say about the short description given of the dog, even on the field hands on, presents training situations that are grey, over the board sure more difficult to interoperate not being there but are you on some sort of solo, anti-forum..........campaign? Thousands of posts are replied to with various possible interpretations of dog's their behaviours, training, behaviours etc. etc. Some correct analogies and some maybe not so correct however they are all there for consideration to possibly shed some light on whatever issue. This occurs daily hands on and even worse interpretations are possibly made hands on so what is your point..................................? It's open for discussion. Do you have any idea of how many behaviours, training issues have been rectified by just conversing with friends throughout the world? When one is educated in the broader picture or at a higher level, sometimes the simplicity of written info can make all the difference.