sitting behind - how to fix?

[Diamond Dog]

I had to crank on the pinch collar a couple of times at the last 2 trainings with my boy. He started getting all snarly with other males then started "back talking/growling". This is just something I will not tolerate, so I tend to be a little heavy handed on the corrections on this.

Anyway, he has a good memory and is pretty smart. So lately when he does a sit next to my left, he sits a little back from me. This just started happening and I attribute it to the fact that he figured out that I can not get as much levarage to pull on the lead if he sits a little back. Not that I do that all the time, but I think he remembers the severity of the last 2 times. These dogs sure are smart!

So what I have been doing is when he sits behind, I walk forward again and make him sit again. I keep a loose lead in my right hand and with my left hand I grab his butt and kind of "slap" (not hard) his butt into place.

#1 Is this the best way to address this problem

#2 I wonder how long it will take for this to correct him if I am consistnent about it. He has a pretty good memory and things imprint on him quickly.

Thanks

[Boomer97]

Not saying your boy isn't smart but I don't think he's made the connection about "where" he sits vs. whether or not you can correct him from there. My guess is he is now going into avoidance. Things can imprint quickly at times, good, bad or indifferent. Your dog may have taken those 2 hard corrections to heart.

[Rott-Wiley]

If you halt and he sits slightly back and you walk forward to get him to sit again, he isn't learning anything. He's heeling with you, you stop, he sits, you walk some more, he sits again. Are you working him with treats? If so, when he does sit, use the treat to lure him into the proper position with the treat. Don't praise or reward him until he is in the correct position. And/or, work him with some really quick sits, short steps, sit, short steps again. Encourage him to keep up with you and try not to make it too much like a drill but more like a game.

[TrinityRun]

What's his motivation? When does he get it? What's your attitude like?

[lblax]

since you are working with a trainer for schutzhund let me ask you this.... do you trust your trainer?????? if not find another if so follow his advice dont try to second guess or get to many opinions on training. when you are training for competition i truley believe to many cooks will spoil the stew....

[TrinityRun]

Larry has a point.

So many questions kinda tends to make one wonder what kind of a trainer you are working with.

PS - Allow me to clarify: In the sense that you must not trust the advice so you ask here. It's vital to work with someone you respect and understand. Some of your best answers come from sitting on a tailgate after a day's session. ;)

[Diamond Dog]

No, I am not working with a trainer. I am in between trainers right now and am evaluating trainers. If you have read my previous posts, I have not been successful finding good training....yet. My last trainer told me I had to leave my dog for 1 month for in kennel training to learn the retrieve for $900.00 and it was pretty much the only way because it involved "a lot of finese and was really hard".

So, it may not be ideal, but right now I double check what people tell me with people here on the board, watch videos, and read books.

Anyway, I am using a tug or a ball on a string for a reward and trying to do what the Bernard Flinks video shows you to do.

As far as : "It's vital to work with someone you respect and understand" .

WOW, I never thought of that . Its so simple now. THANKS!

[lblax]

Originally posted by Diamond Dog
No, I am not working with a trainer. I am in between trainers right now and am evaluating trainers. If you have read my previous posts, As far as : "It's vital to work with someone you respect and understand" .

WOW, I never thought of that . Its so simple now. THANKS!

well here is a quote from one of your other posts

Well, we have been doing this for 1.5 years and now my boy is 21 months.

"At the new training, the trainer wants a harness on and the pinch on as well. They say that the dogs know what the harness means and they get all excited and they must learn that control and obedience is expected at all times, even when you put the harness on.

Also they dont want the dogs taking bites until you say its OK and they want you to have a tab lead hooked up to the pinch and to make corrections if the dog tries this.

It seems to make sense to me. But I just wanted to run it by the pros here.."

it certainly appears to me that by this statemant you are working with a trainer..
and by this statemant---------

"As far as : "It's vital to work with someone you respect and understand" .

WOW, I never thought of that . Its so simple now. THANKS! [/B"


if you use this attitude like you have here(trinity run was giving you advice) that is why you are having a hard time finding a club... here is a site for several clubs in your region
http://www.southwestschutzhund.com/p...3134/index.htm

and dvg clubs
http://www.dvgamerica.com/kgwestrn.html

[TrinityRun]

(No, I am not working with a trainer. I am in between trainers right now and am evaluating trainers. If you have read my previous posts, I have not been successful finding good training....yet.)

Diamond,

I have been following your posts and I, along with others, was under the impression that you were working with someone new whom you liked better than the guy you describe below.

(My last trainer told me I had to leave my dog for 1 month for in kennel training to learn the retrieve for $900.00 and it was pretty much the only way because it involved "a lot of finese and was really hard". )

I'd prefer someone who wanted to train the handler too, not just the dog but that's just me.

(So, it may not be ideal, but right now I double check what people tell me with people here on the board, watch videos, and read books.)

Hey, I'm all for educating yourself on things but if you've got a good trainer now - then I would do what that trainer suggests and not muddy the waters with too many opinions. You're likely to get advice that may conflict with something he's working on. Therefore, your questions on application and such should really be directed to him because he's got a huge advantage over us in that he knows you and the dog. He can see you work.

(Anyway, I am using a tug or a ball on a string for a reward and trying to do what the Bernard Flinks video shows you to do.)

OK, but is this the dog's highest motivation? If not, what is? Food, toy, jute? It takes a lot of practice to work the ball on a string like Flinks. Not just in handling, but in timing and reading the dog.

A lagging dog is a dog not in drive. You're not getting him in drive while you work. Maybe he doesn't like the ball enough, your timing is off, something isn't working and when something isn't working you've got to look at the whole picture. The training enviroment. The equipment/motivation being used. The dog. The handler.

IMO, people are too quick to blame the dog or the trainer - searching for reasons why something isn't working without so much as a passing thought that the trouble could be them as a handler. There are handlers out there that just have a knack for reading the dog, for timing. They can work an exercise and if they get thrown a curve, they shift gears without missing a beat and the training doesn't suffer. They're athletic and poetry to watch because they can pull things from a dog the average guy can't. They are also few and far between in the grand scheme of things. Most people involved with this sport are not nearly as good as these handlers but this can be compensated to some degree by having a super good trainer whom can help you get the most out of your handling and in turn, the dog. So I think it's imperative handlers be realistic with regard to their own abilities.

(As far as : "It's vital to work with someone you respect and understand" .

WOW, I never thought of that . Its so simple now. THANKS! )

Well.....apparantly you feel I don't have anything of value for you. Fair enough. Please accept my apologies. I certainly do not want to waste your time, or mine. That said, disregard what I said above.

Good luck in your training.

[TrinityRun]

Originally posted by lblax
if you use this attitude like you have here(trinity run was giving you advice) that is why you are having a hard time finding a club... here is a site for several clubs in your region
http://www.southwestschutzhund.com/p...3134/index.htm

and dvg clubs
http://www.dvgamerica.com/kgwestrn.html

Lar,

Didn't you learn your lesson already? ;) Silly you.....tryin' to be helpful

[Diamond Dog]

Originally posted by TrinityRun
Lar,

Didn't you learn your lesson already? ;) Silly you.....tryin' to be helpful

Yep, that sure is helpful. Just sending people over to a website that has links to clubs where most of them don't exist or won't let you in or have sub par training. And if you lived in Los Angeles and checked them out you would know this. just about everyone of them is sub par with the exception of one that is pretty far north (3.5 hours away with no traffic) or pretty far south (over 2 hours with no traffic). The poster of that orginal message asked for a reference of a Schutzhund club. Anyone could just point her to a list. She could have done that herself. Wouldnt it have been nice to give her a REAL recommendation. And if you can't do that, why not just stay out of it. Personally I think its irresposnible to point someone to a list where you have not verified the content.

Trinity,

this is one of the first times you have tried to help and its appreciated. Usually your posts are one liners and are judgments on other things besides the topic at hand. So thanks for your post.

I didnt ask anyone for their opinions on my trainer and how I was getting my training. Yet people feel a need to comment on that. Why can't people jsut answer the topics at hand without interjecting their opinions. I promise you, even though people have trainers they love on here, they still post questions. Its also good to answer questions because someone who may not like to post may come across something and gain something from it.

AND since you really care so much about me and my dog and my training, I am training with a PP trainer who's helper is trying to start a Schutzhund club next month. So I am doing this temporarily to evaluate them and to also learn and see a new persepctive. See my post about doing PP and Schutzhund simultaniously

Not that this has ANYTHING to do with getting a dog to sit forward when he sits behind.

Getting back to topic, my dog does not lack in drive in this particular exercize. This just started happening recently. I think it was for the hard corrections when he went off on the other males at this new club. His "drive" is great when he heels. But he definatley is avoiding something when he sits. He is NOT food motivated. He lets cats eat out of his food bowl at home and seldom finishes his meals. He hates eating. He IS motivated by a tug or a string on a ball.

I KNOW the flinks technique "takes a lot of practice". Humor me and assume we practice a lot with it. Its possible you know.

[Boomer97]

Hmmmmm....Nothing wrong with asking questions but as has been stated, if you are actively training with someone you might want to run it by them before you throw it into the mix.

What was the dog's immediate reaction to the 2 (?) hard corrections? Did he shut down? Did he get pissy with you? Did he stop?

I have no problems with giving a correction but I try to fit the correction to the crime. It is so difficult to try and give the correct answer over the boards. What works for one dog may not for another. There are so many variables. Now you seem to have a problem with sit after those 2(?) hard corrections. Step back and look at the whole picture. Was he doing this before? If not you may have found one of the reasons why he is now. The way you're addressing the problem now may be adding fuel to the fire.
It may rectify the problem but at what cost to the overall performance of the dog?

My suggestion is to take a couple of steps back and retrain the sit in drive. Might take a bit longer to cure but my guess is the results will be better.

Good luck.

[Burnsway]

So, it may not be ideal, but right now I double check what people tell me with people here on the board, watch videos, and read books.

Diamond Dog

Are you trying to swing Schutzhund for the first time on your own......

[TrinityRun]

[quote]Originally posted by Diamond Dog
[b]Yep, that sure is helpful. Just sending people over to a website that has links to clubs where most of them don't exist or won't let you in or have sub par training. )

DD,

With all due respect, how do you know what's subpar training and what isn't? You come on here asking rudimentary questions so pardon me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt. The questions aren't a problem, per se but the lack of knowledge in the answers suggests to me you are inexperienced in other areas as well. You don't strike me as being in a positon to judge anything other than obviously bad training -which I'm sure you've seen in the 4 yrs you've been in the sport of Schutzhund.

CA has some of the best trainers in the sport out there. Linking people to the site, to the contact information doesn't mean they are going to come up empty handed. I field contacts all the time for clubs - I give out contact information in an effort to help. If that person can't assist them, they in turn give them additional information. That's how it works. It would be ridiculous to presume everyone passing along information needed to witness the club's experience at the sport prior to releasing the information, don't you think?

(And if you lived in Los Angeles and checked them out you would know this. just about everyone of them is sub par with the exception of one that is pretty far north (3.5 hours away with no traffic) or pretty far south (over 2 hours with no traffic).)

Wow. That's a pretty hefty statement, coming from an admitted novice. Just about every SchH club there is subpar. Hmmm.

(The poster of that orginal message asked for a reference of a Schutzhund club. Anyone could just point her to a list. She could have done that herself. Wouldnt it have been nice to give her a REAL recommendation. And if you can't do that, why not just stay out of it. Personally I think its irresposnible to point someone to a list where you have not verified the content.)

I would think you could take your own advice there too, no? Who are you to judge if Larry, or anyone else's, input was helpful? I wasn't aware that our answers had to meet your criteria of worthiness before we post.

If you don't like someone's answers, skim over them. Delete them. Don't read them. Or, do what you suggest and just "stay out of it."

(Trinity, this is one of the first times you have tried to help and its appreciated. Usually your posts are one liners and are judgments on other things besides the topic at hand. So thanks for your post.)

Really? My posts are typically one liners? In this thread because I asked questions trying to get a better handle on where you're at?I'm quick to judge on other things besides the topics at hand? I must get moderated a lot. I guess I'll have to step back and take stock of myself here on RDN and decide if my presence here is worth anything of value. Again, I don't want to be wasting anyone's time.

One liners? And to think my nickname is FlipLip. An archive search on me must take all of about 2 seconds then. Sure makes the dial up people happy!

(I didnt ask anyone for their opinions on my trainer and how I was getting my training. Yet people feel a need to comment on that. Why can't people jsut answer the topics at hand without interjecting their opinions.)

Here we go again with dictating how folks are allowed to answer. Did it occur to you that perhaps your trainer was mentioned because it's related to the question?

(I promise you, even though people have trainers they love on here, they still post questions. Its also good to answer questions because someone who may not like to post may come across something and gain something from it.)

Questions are fine. I maintain that if you are training with this world class trainer (as you repeatedly refer to him as), he is one of the BEST people to answer your questions. He can demonstrate. He can see you. He can tell you immediately what is needed to get more out of that exercise. But then again, what do I know? I never should have suggested such a thing.

(AND since you really care so much about me and my dog and my training, I am training with a PP trainer who's helper is trying to start a Schutzhund club next month. So I am doing this temporarily to evaluate them and to also learn and see a new persepctive. See my post about doing PP and Schutzhund simultaniously)

I've read your posts. (Sorry, that was one line.)

(Not that this has ANYTHING to do with getting a dog to sit forward when he sits behind.)

I don't agree. (Oops...again, with the one lines.)

((Getting back to topic, my dog does not lack in drive in this particular exercize. )

OK. I must have misunderstood lagging. He's in drive but lagging. Gotcha.

(This just started happening recently. I think it was for the hard corrections when he went off on the other males at this new club. His "drive" is great when he heels. But he definatley is avoiding something when he sits. He is NOT food motivated. He lets cats eat out of his food bowl at home and seldom finishes his meals. He hates eating. He IS motivated by a tug or a string on a ball.)

He's never hungry. It's important to try to balance out the drives where you can. Bring the food drive up. I'm just talking out loud here, I don't expect you to actually find any credence to this.

(I KNOW the flinks technique "takes a lot of practice". Humor me and assume we practice a lot with it. Its possible you know.)

Sorry, I don't assume. ;)

[lblax]

Originally posted by Diamond Dog
[b]Yep, that sure is helpful. Just sending people over to a website that has links to clubs where most of them don't exist or won't let you in or have sub par training. And if you lived in Los Angeles and checked them out you would know this. just about everyone of them is sub par with the exception of one that is pretty far north (3.5 hours away with no traffic) or pretty far south (over 2 hours with no traffic). The poster of that orginal message asked for a reference of a Schutzhund club. Anyone could just point her to a list. She could have done that herself. Wouldnt it have been nice to give her a REAL recommendation. And if you can't do that, why not just stay out of it. Personally I think its irresposnible to point someone to a list where you have not verified the content.

aw but you see the clubs on these links do exist and you would be surprized the amount of people that dont know they list clubs on these websites...... when you are comitted to the sport you drive whether it is one hour or 5 hours... and no they just dont let you join most clubs can tell who is serious and who already knows it all or are just trying to get there dog protection trained... ive also found through the years that when someone only find services sub par it ,usually it is not the service that is sub par and causing the friction