teaching the retrieve - hardest thing?

[Diamond Dog]

I asked the trainer at our Sch club if we could start learning the retrieve. He went on and on about how difficult the retrieve would be to do. He basically told me that the only way to teach the retrieve would be to leave the dog with him for a month (and we as people learn nothing) or to do private lessons (for a fee)He told me about the forced retrieve and I asked "wouldnt you only do the forced if the motivational didnt work". He said yes, but kinda glossed over it and started talking more and more about the things you do in a forced retrieve. He said that the motivational retrieve can only be done on dogs that have had the "foundation" of retrieving instilled from them at as puppies and worked regularly since then (kind of implying that my dog has not had that kind of work so its most likely we were going to have to do the forced)

I could understand if he had my dog do some practive retrieves, evaluated the situation then said something like that. But he didn't

I talked to another member who belonged to another Sch club many years ago and he said he taught his dog the retrieve on this own.

It is doubtful that my trainer will ever show us the retrieve unless its through private lessons.

My question is this. Is the retrieve that difficult for ALL dogs? Can it be trained in a club environment?

And once again (no one ever answered this in previous posts) What do you think of the ???????? videos on this? Or are their better sources to learn this. Keep in mind that we want to LEARN and and learn about what its all about rather than just have someone do it for us.

Mick Trainer: when are you going to make some videos????

[Leader]

I've taught my two rotts to retrieve through play for heaven's sake! you can try doing it too. The hardest part is to get the dog to bring back the object and to keep it in its mouth and sit until YOU ask for it.

Play with your dog with an object he likes and call him once he's caught the object; When he comes back get him to give you the ball for instance when you say give. Then throw it back immediately. His reward for returning with the ball is that you throw it.

Next step, OR MAYBE FIRST STEP DEMPENDING ON YOU AND YOUR DOG, put the ball in his mouth and gently hold his muzzle, petting him and saying hold or guard or keep or something and when your ready...give. Move backward, and tell your dog to heel or closer so that he brings the ball to you and you don't have to make the effort to reach for the ball.

I haven't detailed this very much so if you need more info, pm me or just answer here.

Good luck,
Leader

[TrinityRun]

Is the dog a natural retriever? You throw a ball and he keeps bringing it back for more and more?

I don't agree with a TD who won't show his fellow club members how to work an exercise. He'll do it in private for a fee? PASS!

PS - I have several ???????? videos. The quality has improved over the years. Depends on which tape you're looking at.

[LavenderRott]

I have never taught a dog to retrieve, so I can't advise you on that.

I do know that lots of people have Utility Dog obedience titles and if I am not mistaken, that involves a retrieve. Can't think of anyone in my mom's old training club that had to have one on one training or sent their dog away to learn how to retrieve.

[frontierrots]

I'm not a Sch person BUT I've taught a whole bunch of Rotts and Labs to retrieve through play and some through clicker training.

It's more difficult with a dog with no natural retrieve but certainly NOT the hardest exercise! Not by a long shot

I never ever use force retrieve training, not even for hunting retrievers

[damp]

I have never been so "far-fetched", I was unable to teach my dogs to retrieve without force! Some did better than other, but all had the chance NOT to be forced (and I could live the result)

If your trainer doesn't know how to train retrieving without force or how to teach you to train yourself ( or at least give it a try) I would question his trainer skills!

[damp]

ups

[Diamond Dog]

Originally posted by TrinityRun
Is the dog a natural retriever? You throw a ball and he keeps bringing it back for more and more?

I don't agree with a TD who won't show his fellow club members how to work an exercise. He'll do it in private for a fee? PASS!

PS - I have several ???????? videos. The quality has improved over the years. Depends on which tape you're looking at.

Yes he will retrieve and bring the ball back for more and more. but he doesnt come right to use. he kinda wants to keep the ball. I stopped playing this with him and doing any kinds of ball play because I am afraid of messing something up and I wanted to watch a video or get some formailized training first. So lately we have not done any type of retrieving at all.

The ???????? video in question is the motiviational retrieve one. What do you think of that one? are there better videos than the ?????????

[Diamond Dog]

Thanks for everyones help.

At what point do you incorporate the dumbell? Would it be better to start retrieving with the dumbell right off?

As I said in my preivious post, he doesnt always coe driectly to me with the ball. How do I overcome this? Do I use a "long line" and a pinch collar?

Forgive me if my question is stupid, you have to understand there has been NO retrieve training on our field. Not with me or anyone. I have only seen the "end product" at a trial.

[spidey]

I've taught four dogs to retrieve on command. Two were natural retrievers, two took some coaxing. I know nothing about Sch, but as a general rule, I think retrieving should be taught through play - I don't think there are many dogs who absolutely won't retrieve if it's made fun and rewarding for them. My current puppy was absolutely not interested in retrieving at first, now he's out and back like a flash, because it's fun and there are treats and tug involved. IMO you should use a flat collar and long line if he absolutely won't bring it back quickly, (I wouldn't use a pinch unless you need it), but I'd start with just making it worth his while to bring it quickly - lots of verbal encouragement (I usually give the dog a "cheering section" the whole way back for a while, then gradually reduce it until I just have to say "good dog" when he's back to me) - I don't know that getting formal with this right away is going to give you the best results in the long run. Small steps. I'd be very leery of a trainer who won't really discuss this with you and who wanted to start with a forced retrieve from day one (frankly, and this is just my opinion, I don't see the point of that - ostensibly you're doing this for fun, if your dog's not having fun, and dogs forced to retrieve aren't, how can you be having fun?). I really believe that most dogs can learn to retrieve, you just have to build up a complex skill like this with each consecutive step.

[Rott-Wiley]

I taught a forced retreive on my very first open dog and have never done it since.

With your dog, I would suggest you start by having him hold the dumbell while in a sitting position. Have him take it on command, hold it, then give it to you on command. Gradually extend the amount of time he'll hold it (without chewing it). After he is comfortable with that, get him to move a step or two while still holding it and progress from there. At the same time you're doing that, by all means go back to having him retreive a ball and enjoy working with him in the ball. Keep it fun for both of you. If you have to, work with 2 balls. He'll always want the one you have so use that to your advantage.

[Diamond Dog]

Just to clarify, my trainer never said he wanted to start out with the force retrieve. That is something I sensed and drew my own conclusions from. He just kept talking about the forced retrieve and all of the thigns involved with it and didnt talk about anything at all about the motivational retrieve except that only dogs that had the proper "foundation" could do it.

I am very sure that he was in no way going to start teaching the retrieve within the club. This is is huge issue for me in continuing with this club.

This is why I had all f those posts about looking for other trainers in my area and since there seem to be none that do Schutzhund I was looking at PP and all the questions spawned from there.

[Rott-Wiley]

I have to say that from reading your posts about that Schutzhund Club, it doesn't sound too promising to me. At the very minimum you need to be comfortable where you train. If you are not, that discomfort is going to go directly down the leash and reflect in your dog.

Where I train, they are very firm advocates of teaching a forced retreive and I am not. That however is one of the few areas that we do differ in our methods and I'm fine with that.

[Diamond Dog]

Originally posted by Leader

Next step, OR MAYBE FIRST STEP DEMPENDING ON YOU AND YOUR DOG, put the ball in his mouth and gently hold his muzzle, petting him and saying hold or guard or keep or something and when your ready...give. Move backward, and tell your dog to heel or closer so that he brings the ball to you and you don't have to make the effort to reach for the ball.

I haven't detailed this very much so if you need more info, pm me or just answer here.

Good luck,
Leader

OK, trying to understand this a little more. What is the dogs motivation or "reward" for giving up the dumbbell? I am having a hard time understanding how the dog will understnad that at FIRST its good to hold onto the dumbell, then its good to release it?

What motivational techniques do I use through this?

Also, when I want him to release the dumbbel is it OK to use the "OUT" command that I use with everything else or should it be a different word like "GIVE"?

[Judi W]

I hope I can be excused for not reading all the previous posts in detail.

I have taught 9 Rottweilers to retrieve. Three of them required force, but that force only took two sessions and it was only applied after I had carefully taught and was certain that the dogs knew what was being asked of them.

A couple of the dogs needed nothing more than for the dumbell to be thrown and to be called back to the front that they already knew from the recall. We'll leave them out of this, although this is not unusual for a Rottweiler.

In teaching the hold and front, I start with what I call "kitchen" training. With a bowl of something very tasty sitting on the counter beside me, the dog in a collar and lead. I put the dumbell to the dog's mouth giving the command "take it" (use whatever you want "bringin" "fetch" it doesn't matter). I hold the lead short so that although the dog can turn its head away, it cannot back away from me. If even with a light bit of pressure, the dog does not open it's mouth, I will open it with my fingers and place the dumbell in for 1/2 second, remove and treat. This is repeated until the dog starts opening its mouth and taking without pressure or me doing the opening. The first time the dog opens itself, I jackpot with the treats. Each time, the dumbell it kept in for a split second or so longer. When the dog starts opening its mouth and slightly reaching for the dumbell, the praise and treats accellerate. This continues with the dumbell being held further and further away from the dog so the dog starts moving forward for it. On each and every one of these for the beginning, the dog is in front so the picture being formed in their mind is them sitting or standing straight in front of you with the dumbell and the "out" is used each time the dumbell is removed from the dog's mouth. If the dog clenches the dumbell and does not release, (which all dogs should know the "out" by now, but none-the-less) you simply keep your hand on it and remain motionless - no tugging or fighting the dog to release - and if you will do that the dog will release it on his own. It is when you pull on it that it becomes a tug. They should not be asked to hold motionless with it for a real long period of time. Holding to the count of 7 or so is sufficient.

As this process moves along you will be backing up and holding the dumbell so the dog starts really having to get up and move to get it. You will also start lowering where you are holding it so the dog is moving forward and lowering its head for the dumbell. This moves along until you are putting it on the floor, running forward with the dog on lead then doing a come fore always returning to the place where the food bowl is sitting on the counter for the reward.

Even the dogs I have training that required force were introduced in this manner with great patience. This, as in all training, is so that I can be sure that the dog understands what is being asked before any force is ever applied. All of this is done in a confined area, hence the name "kitchen training" before it is moved elsewhere. The elsewhere is usually done in a hallway so the dog has a straight run to the dumbell and return.

I hope this gives you an idea. The trainers who tell you that the only way to have a certain retrieve is with the forced retrieve are incorrect. Force should only be applied in any training when absolutely necessary. A small bit of correction might be necessary even with the completely voluntary retriever to let them know that it is a command and not a "want to", but this is the foundation.