teaching the retrieve - hardest thing?

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by spidey
And I think the dog ALWAYS has a choice, you have the option of getting him to make the right choice out of wanting a reward, or out of fear of corrections, but I think it's untrue to state that it's only in a pet situation that a dog has a choice - unless you are physically forcing him through every step, the dog always has the option of choosing something else.

No... the point of the force is to condition the dog to believe that he never has a choice, therby avoiding a misbehavior in the future.

Originally posted by spidey
Also, I question what "working task" we're talking about here - is this a life-or-death police dog situation, or a dog involved in a Sch trial?

It doesn't matter... working is working, if you can't understand that, I cannot help you.

[Miabella]

With the "whispering", I was NOT directly pointing to you, Matt. But there are plenty of hush-hush retrieving methods out there, there's no denying it, and that's what this thread was originally about.

originally posted by spidey
Also, I question what "working task" we're talking about here - is this a life-or-death police dog situation, or a dog involved in a Sch trial?

Yeah, last time I checked, Schutzhund was a sport, and there weren't many dogs doing both sport and real life PP or police dog duties.

[DNeff]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
No... the point of the force is to condition the dog to believe that he never has a choice, therby avoiding a misbehavior in the future.

The point is even after training with compulsion these dogs still fail. You still see these dogs fail their schutzhund test, NQ in the ring, or go bite a bad guy when they were not supposed to.

So these dog still have a "choice" even after the compulsion is applied. What have you gained?

Can you say the failure rate (meaning the dog made the wrong choice) with compulsion is that much lower than with methods that don't rely on compulsion???

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
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[Mattweiser]

miabella,

yes there are PSD/Sport Dogs.... good ones..

and the Original Post was about a "FORCED RETRIEVE" which is what I am still talking about. just a different version.


DNeff,

we could honestly sit here and compare anecdotal evidence all day long... I will say this.

if all else is equal, training skill, timing, and time involved.. and we are using cloned dogs.. yes, the training program that makes "good" use of compulsion will be more consistant... perhaps you will get some performances better from the "positive" method... but at some point, it will breakdown.. it may come back.. but the breakdown will happen.

[Storm]

There are different approaches to the retrieve, dogs differ! Applied correctly to the dog in question and considering what the dog has to offer will determine your approach not only to create the desire but also the attitude and consistency. A very good retrieve through motivation can be improved through the right application of compulsion with the right dog in the right scenario and compulsin and motivation split up into different areas of the retrieve. Is what you have satisfactory for the level at which you compete, what is your dog capable of? Can the dog work positively through a fairly good retrieve in order to be even better? I always believe in balance creating the desire to teach, driving for motivation and then cementing. Through balance you should obtain the best results.

[valdes43]

Originally posted by lblax
hmmmmm in my opinion giving the dog a choice only involves a pet situation not a working task

Great point.

IMO this is the order that most dog obedience should be trained.

1. Create a full positive association with the work through positive reinforcement. Typically the first association with something is usually the strongest and longest lasting. (unless of course you make the situation VERy unpleasant then that will probably override a lot. ie: single event learning. But you'd also be amazed how effective the first impression is that if you have a great association with the work the and you mess up a couple of times the classically conditioned attitude will not necessarily go away immediately.) But still not limiting to one environment but generalizing the dog with positive reinforcement through many different environments.

And after a bit of work, implementing NRM's is not unusual.

2. I personally like go into the second stage through lightly uncomfortable negative reinforcement for the case of resiliency in correction (whether it's on the buckle, choke, remote collar, etc.). Still using positive reinforcement to reward desired behaviors.

Because learning happens best with as least stress as possible. I like to initially apply the low level aversive in a low stimulating environment so the dog can think through the aversive and learn the exercise from a different angle instead of focusing on the event of a very impressionable aversive.

The dog will go through this stage for a while.

3. Now the dog should be pretty consistent with everything. Negative reinforcement is removed and positive correction in consequence only for not performing is in effect. But because the dog has gone through a healthy stage of negative reinforcement the dog will know exactly what to do when it gets a firmer correction.

Reward still of course has play in the game.

This process in my opinion covers much more stimuli in the process of generalization. And creates a much thicker groove/richer connections in the dog's mind for the behavior.


*** Side note: Right now, I'm doing sessions with my older male in bitework and ole' Mattweiser as the helper where my dog is being negatively punished (not receiving the bite/ withholding reward) for undesireable behavior. If my dog could talk I'm sure he'd ask me to correct him and get it over with but I don't.


Do I love dogs? Hell yes. Does that mean they should never be punished or corrected in anyway. Hell no. It's part of communication.

[DNeff]

Originally posted by Mattweiser


if all else is equal, training skill, timing, and time involved.. and we are using cloned dogs.. yes, the training program that makes "good" use of compulsion will be more consistant... perhaps you will get some performances better from the "positive" method... but at some point, it will breakdown.. it may come back.. but the breakdown will happen.

If we had cloned dogs and we both trained the retrieve, one of us using compulsion and the other not, can you be so sure that the compulsion trained dog would not breakdown ?

I see plenty of compulsion trained retrieves failing in the ring. Are you so sure they would be more successful? The dogs I see either making it or not making it in the ring have more to do with the trainers than the method, be it compulsion or non-compulsion.

I'm not convinced that a complusion trained retrieve is any more reliable or will get you any more points. Even with an outstanding handler and trainer I still have seen the compulsion trained retrieve fall apart.

Hey, maybe it's me, I've seen the other side and it looks pretty darn good.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Major]

This is very interesting but we seem to be drifting away from "teaching the retrieve" to something like "compulsion vs. motivation". That may be a good subject in a thread of its' own.

[lblax]

Originally posted by DNeff
I see plenty of compulsion trained retrieves failing in the ring. Are you so sure they would be more successful? The dogs I see either making it or not making it in the ring have more to do with the trainers than the method, be it compulsion or non-compulsion.

i think everyone will agree that you make training fun for you and the dog they learn the task but without compulsion somewhere down the road the task will break down all dogs at times break down regardless how it is done.... for example a dog that does an off leash heeling routine in 95 degree heat and finishes with no lagging or dropped performance didnt do it cause he is hoping to hear some clicks at the end or someone is going to show him a ball ..... he did it because he learned the task(however he was trained) and then through the compulsion or correction phase he realizes that whether he is pukeing from the heat or doesnt think he can go on he finishes it...... by you saying in the ring im assuming you mean akc you dog has a nice list of titles behind its name and you should be proud... but what we have come up to in this thread is 2 differant mindsets for training---- 2 totally differant competition venues-------- and the differance of the dogs in these venues are night and day