teaching the retrieve - hardest thing?

[Rott-Wiley]

frontierrots, you're absolutely right! For many many years we had no alternative to teaching the force retrieve. Now that we know more and take the time to properly establish a working relationship with our dogs, a very reliable retrieve of any object; ink pens, keys, cell phone, news paper, etc. can be achieved.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by frontierrots
I'm sorry Larry but compulsion is not the way to sharpen and correct a task. PROPER instructing using precision timing of the event marker (verbal or clicker) to mark exactly what was done right is.

If the dog is instructed exactly correctly then they perform exactly correctly. If timing of the event marker is off then so will be the dog's performance.

the key problem is that if there is no compulsion, at some point the dog will decide when, how, or why to perfrom a task.. that is not what a working dog is... a working dog is a dog that does what you tell it to , when you tell it to, how you tell it to......

anything else does not cut it

realize something here, I am not talking about just AKC, or just SchH.. I am talking about general working issues...

take any of the Ringsports for example.. the retrienve object changes every event.. so what happens when the judge hands you a "whatever" and you have never used one of these in retrieve work.. do you think a "purely positive" trained retrieve will pull you through??

don't think too hard, becuase the answer is no.

Originally posted by frontierrots Remember, Positive does not equal permissive

Actually, this is exactly where our disconnect it.. if you read what i wrote earlier, you may understand a little more about what I am trying to get across....

force, does not mean pain... it simply means "not permissive"..... period...

I can force retrieve a dog, and never once cause it any more pain than in teaching a heel.... nothing more than light "reminders" are necessary...

is this method quick? NO
easy? NO
Painfull? NO
Involve lots of time, and understanding of training principles? YES
100% effective? YES

[Miabella]

Well, Matt, I guess part of the difference is what you as a trainer are personally in this for. I do not do this professionally, and my main motivation is to have fun and bond with my dog and learn. If she messes up in a trial, it's not the end of my world. I don't do this to stroke me ego or gain professional fame and fortune, so a forced retrieve is just not worth it to me. Just my $0.02.

[DNeff]

Originally posted by Mattweiser


take any of the Ringsports for example.. the retrienve object changes every event.. so what happens when the judge hands you a "whatever" and you have never used one of these in retrieve work.. do you think a "purely positive" trained retrieve will pull you through??

don't think too hard, becuase the answer is no.

Actually I think you would find just the opposite to be true especially with clicker trained dogs. Shaping and generalization are a huge part of clicker training, the dog learns to take the skill and run with it, since they aren't punished for making a "mistake" for picking up the "wrong" thing during a previous training session.

Riven's scores and placements in the open class are enough to prove to me that a totally motivational retrieve is and does work great.

Maybe you need to get out there and work with some good motivational retrieve trainers.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Mattweiser]

Dawn,

I knew this would interest you..

actually, in my "frame of mind" of a forced retrieve, clicker training is used...

you might be suprised at how nearly identicle what I am referring to as a "forced" is to what you teach...

the hang up here, is on the term "force"..

which simply means: I will not allow the dog to perform any other behavior .. you are reading into the use of pain, aversives, etc....

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Miabella
Well, Matt, I guess part of the difference is what you as a trainer are personally in this for. I do not do this professionally, and my main motivation is to have fun and bond with my dog and learn. If she messes up in a trial, it's not the end of my world. I don't do this to stroke me ego or gain professional fame and fortune, so a forced retrieve is just not worth it to me. Just my $0.02.

I make no money out of training.. and believe me.. ego is not an issue!! :)

to me it is about what works, and what doesn't..

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by DNeff
Maybe you need to get out there and work with some good motivational retrieve trainers.

by the way... all forms of training ar motivational.. even pain (which I am not using) is a motivator.. in fact fear is the greatest of all motivators....

so please do not throw a general term like motivational around like it is a great thing ;)

[DNeff]

Originally posted by Mattweiser

which simply means: I will not allow the dog to perform any other behavior .. you are reading into the use of pain, aversives, etc....

Actually I have seen plenty of "force" methods used, taught and demonstrated that did not include actually causing pain or even pressure for that matter. So yes, I have a fairly strong idea of what you are referring to.

Basically my dog has a choice in the matter and views retrieve as a great game. This coming for a dog who wouldn't retrieve a toy or a ball if his life depended on it before.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Miabella]

Originally posted by Mattweiser

to me it is about what works, and what doesn't..

There seem to be quite a number of people out there who do make the positive motivational retrieve work.

So the real question to me is WHY are people willing to use any means necessary to make their dog retrieve. If it's not about ego and personal achievement in trialing, then why is the retrieve important enough to justify some of the methods that are whispered about? It's certainly not important to THE DOG, it's important to the human.

[DNeff]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
by the way... all forms of training ar motivational.. even pain (which I am not using) is a motivator.. in fact fear is the greatest of all motivators....

so please do not throw a general term like motivational around like it is a great thing ;)

Believe me if you want to play the semantics game with me I can play the game. I am well aware of the terms. I believe it was I who educated you on the finer points of P+ P-, etc.... wasn't it??

I was referring to "motivational" in the sense of no compulsion or force.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[lblax]

Originally posted by DNeff
Basically my dog has a choice in the matter and views retrieve as a great game. This coming for a dog who wouldn't retrieve a toy or a ball if his life depended on it before.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

hmmmmm in my opinion giving the dog a choice only involves a pet situation not a working task

[DNeff]

Originally posted by lblax
hmmmmm in my opinion giving the dog a choice only involves a pet situation not a working task

Just depends on how you care to approach your training. Many people let their dog make choices, wrong or otherwise, so that they may figure out that making the right choice leads to great rewards.

I believe there are several schutzhund trainer who allow their dogs to make the choice and ignore incorrect behavior and reinforce correct behavior when it does occur. This is also the case for SAR and K9 units.

So are you saying you don't ever let you dog make the wrong decision in a training situation?

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[spidey]

So the real question to me is WHY are people willing to use any means necessary to make their dog retrieve. If it's not about ego and personal achievement in trialing, then why is the retrieve important enough to justify some of the methods that are whispered about? It's certainly not important to THE DOG, it's important to the human.

Excellent points.

And I think the dog ALWAYS has a choice, you have the option of getting him to make the right choice out of wanting a reward, or out of fear of corrections, but I think it's untrue to state that it's only in a pet situation that a dog has a choice - unless you are physically forcing him through every step, the dog always has the option of choosing something else. Also, I question what "working task" we're talking about here - is this a life-or-death police dog situation, or a dog involved in a Sch trial?

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Miabella
So the real question to me is WHY are people willing to use any means necessary to make their dog retrieve. If it's not about ego and personal achievement in trialing, then why is the retrieve important enough to justify some of the methods that are whispered about? It's certainly not important to THE DOG, it's important to the human.

You are just not listening to me... I am not "whispering" about anything.. there is no "behind the scenes violence" in what I am describing as a forced retrieve.... just not an option not to retrieve.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by DNeff
Believe me if you want to play the semantics game with me I can play the game. I am well aware of the terms. I believe it was I who educated you on the finer points of P+ P-, etc.... wasn't it??

I was referring to "motivational" in the sense of no compulsion or force.

I was not attempting to be "semantical".. I just feel that there is a level of emotional emphasis on the term "motivational".. it is right there with the idea of "purely positive".. neither are honest to their meaning..


as for "educating me".. you corrected me for the misuse of a term... you absolutely did not teach me the "finer points" of P+, P-...