It's gonna get hot in here with this post (A little long)

[Muckdogs]

Okay, here's a question for those workers out there sparked by a conversation I had with some friends this week after some work sessions.

How many of you would consider being a "here and now" breeder. By that I mean, how many would be willing to overlook some conformation faults in either the sire or dam to produce better working dogs. This really comes up a lot when you are dealing with Mals, particularly those from Holland (non-FCI). You see the typey FCI's and then you see the freaks from the Dutch that scream "My daddy was a pitbull", who are awesome workers. Of course, you can get the good FCI's as well, but the reality is that I have seen a much higher percentage of the Dutch crosses (some even unpapered or KNPV'd) that are much better workers.

The more I work, the more my mindset becomes like those guys, "I don't give a crap what it looks like, as long as it works." Would you care?

What if you had the opportunity to match up two REALLY good Rotts, superior drives, nerves, small compact athletic ones. But, one or both dogs had some faults that would make the conformation folks chant, "neuter or spay". Would the faults make a difference to you? Or, would you just say screw it, it's getting very difficult to find a GOOD working Rott, so if I have an opportunity to make one, I'm going to take a chance and try to do it?

This is kind of the antithesis of what is talked about a lot by us workers. That being, the conformation folks are so caught up in physical attributes that working drives, nerves and temperment are often forgotten and the breed is getting more and more diluted with respect to true workers.

Of course, I'm not talking about not OFA'ing the dogs and eliminating form consideration those with bad hips or elbows. I'm talking about otherwise good, healthy Rotts with faults that are picked up by conformation folks.


What do you think??

[lblax]

i would say as long as health concerns are meet and as long as serious faults arent allowed i would say breed away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GenHannibal]

Love a little controversy..eh! Well, I'll join in. Being an owner of a Sch III, SG rated dog (now 9 & retired). Awesome dog to work with, drives outta the wazoo scoring 99 and 100 in protection. Most "breeders" would not consider him to be worthy of breeding. However, his faults are minor, a little long in body, not bulky enough, ears on the small side to name a few. Would I breed him? Yes, here's why: excellent work ethics, willing to work & learn, never gave me an attitude, lots of energy and a great overall temperment. In addition, his overall health has been excellent. Plus, the lineage provides good foundation to produce nice pups if bred to the correct bitch.

Yes, I would love to have a dog that could do both work & meet the standards. From what I'm seeing, there are more breeders, now more so then 10 yrs ago, that are trying to do that. Only issue is can you place those "high" energetic dogs in good working homes?

Although your question is a loaded one, it would be difficult (imo) to narrow the answer to a yes or no. Too many variables to consider.

[alexav]

Having done WAY too much rescue, I would not breed a litter if my life depended on it.

HOWEVER....When I go to BUY a pup? That is a different story. If I would ever get off my lazy BUTT and post pictures of my girls you could see that I picked temperament over a perfect topline, perfect bone, and perfect fill under the eyes. (among a few other things)

Sure, I would love to have a Rottie that I could title at both ends of the name someday...but it's difficult for me to pass up that pup that shows me with a PAT that he or she has got that certain balance of drives and hardness that gives me goosebumps.

I would NEVER sacrifice or gamble with soundness and health. If all the stock is HD frei with Cardiac, elbows and eyes clear? I might even take a white spot! :D

[spidey]

I'm not a breeder, but I'd have to say that IMO it would depend on your long-term goal. If you intended to breed drive and ability back in by breeding less-than-desirable (but sound) conformational specimens, with the long-term goal of breeding to conformationally desirable dogs to get a conformationally correct Rottweiler with the correct drives, I don't think it's a bad idea. However, if you lose sight of what the breed should look like, because your only interest is in working ability, then I don't see that you're actually helping the breed at all, any more than those who breed for appearance only, and ignore temperament and ability are helping the breed. Having been involved with a breed where an extreme difference exists historically between the conformational specimen and the working specimen (English Springers), I can say that it's really not a desirable situation to strive for (although, to be fair, many breeders are now turning out Springers who could place in a show ring and who wouldn't get you laughed off the field in a gundog trial). To me, this turned one breed into two different breeds (which isn't necessarily bad in principle, as long as that was the goal, but it wasn't), you shouldn't be able to see the difference between a show Springer and a field Springer as easily as you can, and I very much doubt that most Rottweiler lovers would want there to be this kind of extreme difference between show dogs and working dogs - IMO for the long-term health of the breed, you need to be very careful about which dogs you allow to contribute to the breed's future, both in terms of appearance and in terms of temperament and ability, if that means waiting a bit longer for your perfect dog, or spending a bit more money, so be it, I don't think breeding a "working type" of Rottie as an end in itself (i.e. with no long-term intention of getting a dog which both looks and works as it should) is in any way a noble or principled thing to do to a breed. Temperament and ability shouldn't fall by the wayside simply because you prefer to show at conformation than Schutzhund (or whatever), but nor should conformation fall by the wayside because you have little interest in conformation showing. The standard includes appearance AND temperament.

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by GenHannibal
Love a little controversy..eh! Well, I'll join in. Being an owner of a Sch III, SG rated dog (now 9 & retired). Awesome dog to work with, drives outta the wazoo scoring 99 and 100 in protection. Most "breeders" would not consider him to be worthy of breeding. However, his faults are minor, a little long in body, not bulky enough, ears on the small side to name a few. Would I breed him? Yes, here's why: excellent work ethics, willing to work & learn, never gave me an attitude, lots of energy and a great overall temperment. In addition, his overall health has been excellent. Plus, the lineage provides good foundation to produce nice pups if bred to the correct bitch.

Yes, I would love to have a dog that could do both work & meet the standards. From what I'm seeing, there are more breeders, now more so then 10 yrs ago, that are trying to do that. Only issue is can you place those "high" energetic dogs in good working homes?

Although your question is a loaded one, it would be difficult (imo) to narrow the answer to a yes or no. Too many variables to consider.

That's about how I feel. The question of placing the pups is a good one, and one I have thought of. Placing working Rott pups would be a chore. Not to put water on the topic, but our conversations were related to Mals, whcih is a whole different world in and of itself. Admittedly, I would probably be reluctant to do the forbidden breeding with Rotts, but since this is a Rott board, I couched the ?? in those terms. Like it or not, Rotts are not an in vogue dog in sport. the do admirably from time to time in SchH, but for 99% of them, any other sport like the ring varieties are out. No slam on agility or carting, but that is not the market. For Mals, a lot more opportunities abound and placement would be relatively simple.

I think I agree with spidey in that a good long term goal may be to link back to superior conformation dogs. But, that said, one would have to hope for superior pups, both in conformation and drive/nerve to breed back to the confo dogs. Also, it would seem to me unrealistic to expect that someone with a Ch. dog would want to breed back to these types of lines, unless you would purchase the dog for your own stock.

[damp]

I do see you point Muckdogs.

I don’t care how beautiful a Rottweiler is, if it can’t work or has a lousy temperament. In the other hand I would never like to hear: Wow, what drives and temperament your dog has… what kind of breed is he or is he purebred???
I fear this could be the result in +10 years, just as the result of lack of working abilities, when you only breed for conformation.

That said… I once bought a Boxer being well aware he had too loooooooooog nose and also a Rottweiler with a white spot on the chest (hoping is would diaper) Why? They had what I looked for to suit my interests - Sch H (but they were for sure not fit for conformation or breeding)

I still believe it’s possible to breed for both working abilities and correct and beautiful conformation. If such a well breed (in all fields) Rottweiler doesn’t suit our ambitions and “dog interest” I will say… look for another breed.

[BostonRott]

Several thoughts:

A good sport dog is a stable dog, one who is balanced in drives, biddable and willing to work. Why would such a dog not be placeable in an experienced pet home? My first litter was double Arri, and Aki brought in. Plenty of drive. ALL the pups are in good pet homes, as a good home is more important to me than a working home..........working homes are more likely to dump the dog.

I also agree that to breed solely for one end of the spectrum is to do the breed a disservice. That said, I also agree that more work needs to be brought back into the breed. However, if people won't get off their duffs and train and title the dogs, how are we to know what played out in the whelping box, and what didn't?

As to breeding less than ideal conformation dogs.....Froli is multi SG. She has a very correct and compact body, with well balanced angulation and strong muscling. Her markings are muddy, and the front ones have decreased in size as she's aged. Her mouth and eyes are dark (1B), but her ears hang out a bit from her head (not flying, just not tight in). She is currently bred for the second time. Why? She's had her hips and elbows cleared in two countries, her heart is clear by a board cert'd cardiologist, her eyes are cleared twice by two different board cert'd opthamologists (and CERF'd). Her parents have no history of cancer behind them. She is a high drive girl who is very willing to work (typical of Pascha blood). While Pascha bloodlines aren't so hard to find over here, finding them with full health clearances is. She is SchH2 (will do the 3 in the Fall), always pronounced and very highly rated on her breed test. She is the ONLY Rottweiler in the country to be SchH titled and Nationally ranked in Agility. And when we finally finish her Agility titles (litters keep getting in the way ;)), she'll be the first Rottweiler in this country to be dually titled in Agility and SchH, and the first Working breed dog to do so also. Currently there is only one other dog who has accomplished this, a Mali.

The first litter's puppies are doing well, and are everything I was hoping for in terms of drives, bidability, etc. Only problem: there was only one female and she did not meet my criterion for my next working girl, so she's in a wonderful pet home, soon to be starting agility.

So yes, I don't see a problem with breeding less than perfect conformation specimens, they breed less than perfect working specimens all the time.

[Rottnlove]

I'm going to make this short and simple.

If the dog has major faults of any kind, be it health or conformation, I would not even consider breeding. The fact is, there is no such thing as the perfect Rottweiler. But, the dog has to be within standard and have a great temperament and also be capable of being a true working dog. They're out there, even though it may be hard to find. I'd like to see only the best of the best being bred. Whatever you're striving for in your breeding program, you should only include the best of the best. The point is to better the breed. That takes a lot of work and I'm sure it's not an easy thing to do!

So, I personally would not breed a dog that was way out of standard just because it has a great ability to work.

[Beckysmom]

I live in a rural area now where dogs are still bred to do "real" work and people look for dogs they like the characteristics of who may have no "breed" at all. The typical area farm dog appears to be some blend of aussie, border collie, and often something larger and stronger that can pull a cart, and/or GSD, but who knows.

My rescue boy had interested a couple of people as a potential match with someone's great SAR bitch, because he has (or anyway had prior to surgery) extraordinary combo of agility, power, speed, energy, large size. It might have been an interesting question potentially to consider--and would have gone further than yours does as it would almost certainly involve the deliberate creation of a mutt. But he a) had entropion and b) is now neutered, so there is no question in his case.
The deliberate creation of a mutt would be potentially creating even harder to place progeny on down the line, OTOH the deliberate creation of a mutt would not leave the aspect of apparent rotties having any sort of weirdness or the breed as a whole being blamed for anything in particular.

Personally I think such an approach--whether deliberate breeding of a mutt, or deliberate breeding of a dog for good work abilities but poor conformity-- should only be taken if it has been determined in advance that between the owners of the bitch and dog who may each want a puppy, and others, that there will be at least 12-14 homes known in advance for the potential pups--and the owners of the dogs to be bred should be willing to permanently give homes to any that are not claimed or that turn out to be not desired any longer by the adopters because, say, the mating turns out not to have been as fortuitous a combo as had been hoped.

Come to think of it, this is probably a good approach even for dogs who will be papered and have a long line of show and work titles on both sides of the family. Unwanted dogs are just too sad.

[Storm]

Sometimes I think ......... all I want to see is a puff of smoke as my dog takes out the helper, what does my dog look like? Who cares! :) But sure talking rotties we have to cater for the breed as a whole, mallies are just so ugly it doesn't make a difference! LOL! Alrighty then, I don't look at it as because many breed people neglect the working side, I may as well neglect the confirmation side as this mindset doesn't make sense! Despite the majority of "breed" orientated individuals out there we, the minority try to keep things on par, very difficult indeed, but the norm seems to preserve the precious looks and **** the working attributes which becomes to evident when speaking to such individuals and the limits of there experience become so obvious because of there mindset. Balance is a must but not a reality because of various factors, but been a working enthusiast I must say I could definatlely overlook minor confirmation aspects for the sake of superb working abilities. But the physical presence of the dog adds so much to the picture and the presence of the dog. Locally guys advertise rotties "working stock" but it is a joke I can only think of two rotties, including my guy, withing 1000's of km that work, so how the hell do these guys advocate working dogs? It is difficult and been on the working side my answer may swing differently as opposed to a breed person but foremost consider the breed as a whole if you don't you do more damage then anything else but considering the situation and where I come from definately looks will be compromised for working attributes, I don't have a choice! Oh and a just kidding about the Mals, they are awesome dogs! ;)

[GenHannibal]

Storm brought up another equation in breeding the "perfect" combo dog. How many ethical breeders do both,working and conformation here in the USA? To my knowledge, not as many as should be. There are many breeders who've never trained their own stock and titled them in the working arena. Too many of them send their dog away to be trained for Schutzhund, AKC Obedience and then proclaim to know what it takes to suceed in those venues. I've known a few breeders who started training their dog for CD and wound up sending the dog to someone else. They did this in Schutzhund also. Not for the lack of time, but for not knowing how to train the dog to achieve it's potential. And, yet these very same breeders will stand on the sideline criticizing the competitor. My take on this, is that if you want to be the breeder of "here & now", you need to KNOW and EXPERIENCE what it takes for that "perfect combination". That would be the only way our breed would move forward. My total respect goes to those breeders!

[work-n-show]

I agree 100% with spidey.

IMO it is OK to overlook minor conformational faults for working drive if your long term goal is to bring conformation back in later.

I once heard an AKC judge say after picking a bitch with a horrible head, "I could fix the head in one breeding, the rest of the bitch was outstanding." I think the same applies to temperament. If a dog is a standout in every way with some minor faults then breed it knowing it is only a step toward a greater goal.

I think there are plenty of Rottweilers out there that are very well built conformationally with exceptional working drives (for the breed).

[Storm]

IMO................. The judge should place that been presented to him and not on his assumption as to what he can and can't fix. As for plenty of Rotties out there conforming breed and working wise, not in this part of the world. ;)

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Storm
IMO................. The judge should place that been presented to him and not on his assumption as to what he can and can't fix. As for plenty of Rotties out there conforming breed and working wise, not in this part of the world. ;)

Nor in this part that I have seen. You see, part of the problem here is conformation breeder ignorance as to what working drives are. That fact that a dog shows an interest in a tennis ball does no mean that the dog "has crazy ball drive", nor does the fact that the dog will pick up a stick and bring it to you indicate "super retreive drive" nor does the fact that the dog sniff around the ground for morsels indicate a "superior ability to track", nor does the fact that when pressured/agitated and backed into a corner the dog will bark or fear bite indicated "phenomenal defensive drive and strong nerves". I guess part of the problem is that people that really know what working drives are supposed to be, and people that say that their lines/dogs have these drives never link up to talk/learn/discuss and the working people never seek out the confo breeders to show them what real working puppy tests are, how they are used and what they can reliably indicate. Shold the workers seek out the confo breeders, or the other way around. And if we workers did that, woudl they listen. I guess the thing that really pisses me off is when I hear dogs/pups/lines/kennels touted as "real" working lines and when the dogs show up at the field are nothing but a bundle of bad nerves and poor drives.