Defense & Fight Drive

[Brad Gargis]

Regardless of sport, out of all the tests one sees for dogs, which test measures the defense and fight drive the best?

[Mattweiser]

none...

all sport trials can be overcome through high prey dogs and prey-based training

[Brad Gargis]

Off the sport field do you like see certain tests done to measure a dog's ability in that department or it not that simple?

What does object guarding show? Guard Drive? or would this measure some form of defense ability?

[Mattweiser]

to me, object guarding shows the dog's ability to learn, problem solve, and still maintain a desire to bite...

then again, I have very little "hands on" experience.. this is only what I see in other dogs (through watching)...

I truely see very little defense in a guarding routine

[Doug Wendling]

Each sport has it's own little tests that were designed to show the dogs drives, character, or temperament, or whatever you want to call them. Here is the problem with that, at least the way I see things. A dog can only show you what he has been given genetically, and today's trainers are much better at hiding things then what they were in the past. Their are parts of SchH that are called "defense," yet their are plenty of SchH titled dogs out there that are all prey driven. So, you can say you are testing the defense of the dog, but if the dog does not see defense, no matter what you think you may be doing to him you are not testing the defense. You may be seeing a prey driven dog that was trained to put up with whatever he needs to, to obtain the bite?

If you really want to test a dogs character, you need to do things to him that he has never been trained for in the past and see how he performs. This is how I would test a young police dog prospect. The very first time a dog is exposed to something is the best way to see what he is really made of, and no it is not always that simple. Sometimes, the dog may really not understand what you are asking of him, in which case you have to be able to see this when it happens and not just say the dog does not posses what it takes to do the job.

My personal favorite to test a dog in bite work is muzzle work, this is where the best dogs rise to the top, in my opinion. Here again it is not just that simple, that you put a muzzle on a dog and test them, their is more to it then that. But, to answer the original question, I think muzzle work brings out the "fight" drive the most in a dog that is capable of working at that level.

In my opinion, the object guard was designed to show a dogs possessiveness, I would not call it a "guard drive," but that is just my opinion. I do train and own a couple of strongly bred KNPV dogs that mean all business when it comes to guarding an object, they will mess you up for sure! I have a young Dutch Shepherd that in my opinion goes right into defense when he is gaurding something (this has not been trained into the dog he is young yet), but it brings out the defense in him for sure.


Just some thoughts! :)

[Leader]

Doug Wendling,

At what age would you try testing a dog, without any risk or little risk of 'damaging' a dog? When I say damaging, I mean in case the dog isn't good enough, poor temperament and so on. Oh, I seem to be running on and on...but you know what I mean, don't you?

Leader

[Doug Wendling]

That is a tough question to answer over the Internet. I think you need to not only take the age of the dog into consideration, but the maturity of the dog. I start to look at the dog to get a feel of maturity from the time he is brought out onto the field and I keep on progressing from their. I will see how social the dog is, see what he is like in different environments and progress to bite work. I feel I can get a pretty good feel for a dog without doing muzzle work with him. I say this because I would be very cautious in doing muzzle work with a young dog, their are a lot of other things you can do and should do before going on to muzzle work.

I test a dog at any age, the age and maturity dictates the type of testing that I do with the dog. As I said before one thing I truly believe in is that a dog can only show you what he has been given genetically. Meaning, if you think you are going to work a dog in prey and he is mostly a defensive dog, he may not see what you are doing as prey, although you may think you are working him in prey. Make sense? Although you can raise and lower a dogs drive thresholds and can desensitizes a dog to certain things you will never change a dogs basic character or drive package. This is my opinion.

Sorry, if I did not answer your question? It is hard to explain something's over the Internet. What is it that you were looking at testing a dog for?

[Brad Gargis]

Thanks for the input guys. This is another thing I've come across too finding info on this.
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm

[Mick Trainer]

I have seen this test done (not by Lou but by the Donn Yarnell who did Lou's Job before him I believe) and use simliar test myself but feel that it does have limitations as a selection tool and does not "break the dog down" as far as some would believe it too. This is not too say that it is not a valuable tool, but just that it has limitations.

One limitation is that some believe that it takes away any previous training the dog has undergone but for me it does not too the extent some feel and many dogs can be trained through tie out work to work around it. I am sure for what Lou and the likes use it for that it works fine but it is not enough on it's won for what I seek.

For me, there is not one test alone that tells me 100% what the dog is capable of but rather prefer to work them 5-6 times and get the total picture. You can see much of what a dog has too offer through this test or through a single workout outside it's training routine and this would be enough to know "yes" or "no" for police service work etc but when you do not have the choice of moving a dog on (most people/hanlders/customers do not wish to simply get another dog when the one they has does not make the grade) I need more time to truly access where the dog is at, what is he/she capable of etc. That is why I prefer to play for a little longer.

It probably is not correct too say that this testhas weaknesses, but more that it does not fit in on it's own with what I do.

Mick.

[Doug Wendling]

The first time I saw this test done was about 6 or 7 years ago and it was done by another CA based police dog trainer. It definitely has it's good points, but this is really not a test for a young dog. Now, I know Lou knows how and when to use the test, I am just saying this for some of the less experienced people. A dog may handle this test fine when he has matured enough, but immaturity can play a big roll in this test. Most of the dogs I get involved in, in testing are under the age of 1 year. So, they are really not ready to handle this type of test and if you were to use it on them you may not get a true picture of the dogs character or it could get uglier then that depending on the testers skill level.;)

I agree with Mick, if you get more then one opportunity to test a dog the better the picture you get of the dog.

I also do not believe that "fight drive" is a drive all on it's own. I use the term, but for me it is made up of many different character traits I see in a dog. If the dog posses the necessary character traits to put the whole package together.

[Mattweiser]

here is something that we do to "test" dogs... I use that term loosely, since we are not so much testing, as are we checking our dogs to get a feel for their current level of "experience" and genetic makeup...

what we do is pretty similar to what Armin describes on his article on "defense promotion"... I don't want to re-write his work (or mis-state it ;) )... but in a nut shell what we do is this;

take the dog out at night in an industrial park type setting (the trainer and handler must have had extensive discussions and planning prior to commencing this).. we have the decoy(s) placed throughout the area in strategic locations... then we go for a walk! :) :) :)

we press the dog in varioius situations and locations at an age/experience level.... the dogs (if previously worked) can wear a muzzle so that at the end they can actually fight the decoy.. but more often than not, they simply get the satisfaction from "driving the threat away"....

[Mick Trainer]

We too have "real life nights" to see where the dog is at. We will alter the senario depending on the dog etc but for me you must periodically test to see where you are at, to plug any holes etc.

Mick.

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
here is something that we do to "test" dogs... I use that term loosely, since we are not so much testing, as are we checking our dogs to get a feel for their current level of "experience" and genetic makeup...

what we do is pretty similar to what Armin describes on his article on "defense promotion"... I don't want to re-write his work (or mis-state it ;) )... but in a nut shell what we do is this;

take the dog out at night in an industrial park type setting (the trainer and handler must have had extensive discussions and planning prior to commencing this).. we have the decoy(s) placed throughout the area in strategic locations... then we go for a walk! :) :) :)

we press the dog in varioius situations and locations at an age/experience level.... the dogs (if previously worked) can wear a muzzle so that at the end they can actually fight the decoy.. but more often than not, they simply get the satisfaction from "driving the threat away"....

Mr. Matt,

What's the status? A little "defense drive" promotion this week or what? Get off the board and train!! :D j/k

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by valdes43
Get off the board and train!! :D j/k

Dang!! a guy posts one time.. and he gets chastised!!

not all of us can be "professional trainers"!!
:) :) :)