Positive/Motivational Methods in Protection

[Ramon]

Okay, lets hear everyone's favorite positive/motivational methods for protection sports.

Here's my favorite for getting a high drive dog to heel while on the protection field.

With the dog in the down position, say "Heel"/"Fus". Send the dog after the decoy on a long bite only when he sits and makes eye contact with you for one second. It might require compulsion to keep him from breaking, but not as much as other techniques. After he's good at that, add one step in your Heeling. Eventually add a turn and keep going from there. It might take several sessions with a hard dog. Never send the dog after the decoy until he makes good eye contact with you throughout the heeling. The bite is his reward for giving you attention during the heeling.

My dog needed more sessions than most and he also needed electricity, but it was much less compulsion than I would have needed without this method.

[Muckdogs]

I'm a big fan of inductive training as well. The lessons, while not as quickly mastered, are longer lasting because the dog makes the nexus between the behavior and the reward, whatever the reward is. Your techinque is on target to obtaining this. Sometimes, we even take it a step further. If using a decoy, as in your example, the dog is usually ramped up, if they see the decoy there ready for the catch. If we have problems gaining compliance, I will (if I am decoying) or have the decoy, turn away from the dog and maybe drop the sleeve, as if to say to him "be correct first and then you get the reward". This works good, espoecially when you see the dogs face when you drop the sleeve, they look so disappointed as if to say, "What the heck are you doing?". After a few sessions like this, the lessons are generally ingrained.

Your advice regarding baby steps for correctness are also exactly what we do. One correct step with attention, boom, immeidate reward. Then two steps correctly, boom, immediate reward. And so on. Before you know it, you have done your thirty and are ready for an about turn.

[Mattweiser]

OK.... that is a great technique...

allow me to take it one step further... put the dog on a long back tie... continue to heel around (in the area allowed by the back tie)... when you get the desired bahavior (eye contact), send the dog

ensure that the decoy is standing juuusst outside of the line (allow a couple extra inches for "stretch").. if the dog breaks on his own and tries to bite.. ignore him, the line will correct him for you.. plus the decoy can be calm and not running around like a freak.... If the dog "earns" a send, the decoy simply takes one or two steps forward (into the range of the line) and gives a bite reward.....

you could say that it is a correction, but without the handler being involved (i.e. no "pfui", "no", etc) it is more like an instance of P- (taking away something good) as opposed to P+ (a correction)...

To me this is much more "behavioral" than traditional e-stims and prong corrections...

thoughts???

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
OK.... that is a great technique...

allow me to take it one step further... put the dog on a long back tie... continue to heel around (in the area allowed by the back tie)... when you get the desired bahavior (eye contact), send the dog

ensure that the decoy is standing juuusst outside of the line (allow a couple extra inches for "stretch").. if the dog breaks on his own and tries to bite.. ignore him, the line will correct him for you.. plus the decoy can be calm and not running around like a freak.... If the dog "earns" a send, the decoy simply takes one or two steps forward (into the range of the line) and gives a bite reward.....

you could say that it is a correction, but without the handler being involved (i.e. no "pfui", "no", etc) it is more like an instance of P- (taking away something good) as opposed to P+ (a correction)...

To me this is much more "behavioral" than traditional e-stims and prong corrections...

thoughts???

Good idea, may have to find a use for it. As far as it being more behavioral, I agree. the dog is learning the correct behavior through performance and reward. the key to learing is the reward. No reward, no learn.

[Ramon]

Originally posted by Mattweiser

ensure that the decoy is standing juuusst outside of the line (allow a couple extra inches for "stretch").. if the dog breaks on his own and tries to bite.. ignore him, the line will correct him for you.. plus the decoy can be calm and not running around like a freak.... If the dog "earns" a send, the decoy simply takes one or two steps forward (into the range of the line) and gives a bite reward.....

Sounds interesting. I agree it is more behavioral, but I do have a couple of concerns. Do you put the line on the dog's collar or harness?
If you put the line on the dog's collar, what about the risk of injury to the dog? I suppose for most dogs it won't be a problem, but if the dog has high drive and breaks fast, he could be jerking his neck. If the dog is hard but doesn't break fast, then the correction is minimal and probably not as effective as a prong or e-collar. If you put the line on the dog's harness, then my guess is that it fails to be a correction, and you'll have to wait for the dog to figure out how to get the bite on his own. For some dogs, I imagine that could be long time.
Not trying to start an agrument. I appreciate your input. If what you've seen in practice is different from what I picture, then I'm probably wrong.

[Mattweiser]

I get your concern...

one point would be.. don't have the dog a hundred feet away (to limit his acceleration ability)... a couple of feet will do...

also, whether you choose collar or harness, I see no real difference... the point is not to administer a correction from the line.. the line is simply a means to withhold the bite... period.... if you could create a soft cushiony "force field" I think it would have the same effect.. ;) .. While a collar application might create a more "immediate" connection, all methods will effectively withhold the bite reward... so the main goal is still accomplished.

[Storm]

Good foundation, correctness and consistency will greatly reduce the need for compulsion especially throughout the protection phase, but sure it has its place. It is usually older dogs with poor training that the trainers/handlers resort to compulsion as the dog is so "far gone"! Been lucky to have had a few dogs to train from scratch, with good clear foundations the dogs have worked like dreams, clear mind, almost zero compulsion and maintaining the clearness has been no problem as the foundation is clearly imprinted in the dog's head. I remember when I started out training dogs, we were working this one dog that was hammered every training session to a point where I would look into the dogs eyes and see blood pouring out of his mouth.:( These were "hard" guys with peanuts for brains. At that point of the dog's training it was so confused and so blocked......................as I look back at those days I think just how much I could accomplish with that dog if it were now, compulsion? This is something that people resort to so quickly as to them it's, "dog does not listen, so we make it listen" but unfortunately a lot of the times the dog does not understand, yeah difficult to understand sometimes. Some say yeah but the dog is being dirty, but a lot of the time the dog does not understand and sometimes sees being"dirty" as part of the procedure to the final product. Not so nice to have had to learn the sport along those lines. Just an observation, a lot of guys do drive exercises as part of a controlled exercise during the training aspect of protection, but where do you see a dog truly driving the handler in a trial, protection exercise. Rear escort should the dog be doing that or eyes on assailant. Sch1, attack on handler, where should the dog be focusing? I have never yet seen a dog locally driving a handler in a trial during these exercises and IMO the control comes as a result from collectively training the dog and an overall demeanour moulded with good handler/dog relations. Maybe I am just "lucky" but personally have never had a problem with these two exercises and have never done drive exercises in training.

[Ramon]

Originally posted by Storm
It is usually older dogs with poor training that the trainers/handlers resort to compulsion as the dog is so "far gone"!

It's a bit off track, but I still think compulsion has its place depending on what you want for your dog. If you ever played competitive sports, the best coaches incorporate and enforce discipline and high expectations in their programs, not just motivation. My dog pulled over 2400 pounds in competition. I would guess that without compulsion in his training his best pull would be about half that. The reason I say that is because as soon as I incorporated compulsion into his training, which was all motivational at that point, his pulls went up dramatically. I don't think this philosophy is totally unrelated to Schutzhund. Afterall, it's a dog sport. If anyone has won at the National level in Schutzhund without depending heavily on compulsion, I sure don't know who it is.
Anyway, does anyone have any other specific Positive/Motivational methods to share? I know someone mentioned cleaning the dog on the Hold & Bark?? I'd really like to hear about that one.

[Doug Wendling]

Ramon
In the other thread you talked about your friends Mal, and him being "dirty", can you explain what the dog was or is doing?

[Ramon]

Originally posted by Doug Wendling
Ramon
In the other thread you talked about your friends Mal, and him being "dirty", can you explain what the dog was or is doing?

The dog is anxious to bite the sleeve, so he will get close to the decoy and touch the sleeve on occassion during the Hold & Bark. It really doesn't look that bad. If he were my dog, I'd be happy with it. He's obviously good enough to get a passing SchIII score at the national level where judges take off points for every little infraction, but the owner/handler wants perfection. Even a 96 in 3 events will only get you a 288, which is probably not good enough to win.

[valdes43]

In implementing positive reinforcement techniques with minimal force in protection you have to be in control of the reinforcer which is the bite, you should have a conditioned reinforcer to mark the behavior you liked and you CANNOT let the dog reinforce himself for bad behavior (doing so will make the behavior a lot more resistant to diminishing). It's why we either block the dog or/and teach him through signals (negative punisher marker aka "extinction cue") that the reinforcer he wants so bad is unavailable for undesireable behavior. Knowing this can help you figure out how to set up things or see where things are going wrong. In bitework, the bite is the most reinforcing thing to the dog, with it comes the fight, etc..

Let's use Muck and Matt's examples:


.Muck: If using a decoy, as in your example, the dog is usually ramped up, if they see the decoy there ready for the catch. If we have problems gaining compliance, I will (if I am decoying) or have the decoy, turn away from the dog and maybe drop the sleeve, as if to say to him "be correct first and then you get the reward". This works good, espoecially when you see the dogs face when you drop the sleeve, they look so disappointed as if to say, "What the heck are you doing?". After a few sessions like this, the lessons are generally ingrained

Valdes: Here the bite is the most reinforcing thing. The dog is very frustrated because he cannot get to the bite and ends up losing focus on the task causing the "non compliance". The dog has not been taught how to operate on his handler to get the bite or is maybe going through a little brain fart. :) The decoy turns away (extinction cue) to signal the dog that he's not going to be reinforced for that behavior. He's basically telling the dog "nope, not that behavior..try again". This exercise is best introduced on the pole so that the dog can experience extinction to the sleeve because of his out of control attitude. The dog knows obedience but is sooo into trying to get his reward that he does not think straight. Extinction puts the dog to the point where he tries and tries and tries and keeps trying until he finally gives up. Well now that the dog has given up and can think a little because all of his focus is not on the bite anymore then maybe he'll perform his commmand. Once he does, BAM! BITE! Through a few repetitions, the dog learns to try to find an alternate behavior when he sees the decoy drop the sleeve because whatever he's doing right then and there is useless (extinction cue/negative punisher marker).

Matt: allow me to take it one step further... put the dog on a long back tie... continue to heel around (in the area allowed by the back tie)... when you get the desired bahavior (eye contact), send the dog ensure that the decoy is standing juuusst outside of the line (allow a couple extra inches for "stretch").. if the dog breaks on his own and tries to bite.. ignore him, the line will correct him for you.. plus the decoy can be calm and not running around like a freak.... If the dog "earns" a send, the decoy simply takes one or two steps forward (into the range of the line) and gives a bite reward.....

Valdes: Long line is used to block the dog. Security that the dog will not reinforce himself by taking the liberty of getting a bite on his own. The option is does not exist. He has CONTROL of the reinforcer here. When the handler gets the eye contact he gives the bite command. The bite command is a conditioned reinforcer meaning it used to mark the desired behavior and then reinforced with the bite. It ensures/marks that the dog is actually being rewarded for heeling versus running over for the bite. It takes care of an important timing issue in reinforcing behavior. It is the same exact thing the clicker does.

I just wanted to break a little of that down for people that want to understand WHY these techniques work. I find that the most beneficial part. I don't want to just follow someone because they said it just works, I want to know why.

[Doug Wendling]

Here is my (well not really mine it is what I was taught) spin on OB training in protection.
It is similar to what you guys are doing, but it has one big difference. We don't want the dogs to focus on the handler. I start in just a sit position, the helper a few feet away in front of the dog. The dog needs to sit and contain (drive capping) himself and he gets a bite. Maybe next time we ask the dog to go from a sit to a down, with guidance from the handler, containment, bite. The dog needs to learn basic positions in a capped state, before we start to heel. This all keeps building and gets more difficult for the dog to stay in a high drive self-contained state before the bite. We change things constantly, sometimes the dog is sent for a bite sometimes the helper will walk right up in front of the dog. The key is the dog needs to stay focused on the helper and high in drive and be obedient to the handler for him to really learn this skill of drive capping. In the end you should be able to have a helper doing whatever in front of your dog and you should be able to heel your dog, sit him, down him, recall him, and the dog should never be asked to focus on you the handler, but he will be obedient to your commands, this is drive capping.

What is happening when you force the dog to focus on the handler is he is coming out of drive, even if it is just a little. Some dogs end up using this method as a way of self-containment of their own. They know they can't keep looking at the helper without wanting to bite or react and this is the feeling that has gotten them corrected in the past, so they look away, focus on the handler maybe, whatever. But, the fact is they look away so they will not be tempted to bite, so they lower their own drive to a level they can contain themselves. Teach them to be contained right in the face of what they want, the helper.

Take a look at the back transport and the bite out of the exercise. I can think of a recent trial that I worked the front half, the dog was taught to focus on the handler period. Well, I turned and attacked and the dog didn't see it at first, the dog was to focused on the handler, then when the dog realized what was happening the dog was afraid to leave, because of all the heavy s*** they put on him to stay in the heel position. The end result, I was on top of the dog before the dog ever left the handlers side.

Now, if the compulsion isn't heavy enough to keep the dog there, he will start to forge, etc., because he isn't working for hot dogs or the toy, he wants to bite. So, now you can't keep him there using the leash or whatever you use in training. He sees the bad guy and he has now learned you can't stop him at this point. So, why don't you teach him from the start to stay focused on the helper, but remain obedient to you the handler. Make any sense? I know I skipped over things here, but this is just a general over view. Here is a great article that my friend wrote about OB in protection.
http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/obed.html

[Doug Wendling]

Ramon
Was the dog taught an out platz, or out quiet? Or is he doing a regular bark and hold? And does the dog bite or just bump? Sometimes it is best to leave things alone and not try to squeeze every last point out of a dog. Sometimes that is when everything turns to s***. You know what I mean?:)

Their is so much to look at, does he favor on side over the other? Have you tried working him with two sleeves on, or have you tried to block him in the guard, what does he do? Have you ever worked the dog in a suit and see what he does? How is his out?

Try working him in some weird places and see how his guards are, buildings, brush, etc. Some times it is the case where you have to show the dog tougher things to deal with for him to learn how to handle trial stuff, make sense? Sounds like the dog never really learned how to counter in the H&B without biting, in other words he can't express himself completely just with barking. Does he bump/bite all the time or only from time to time? You need to look at what is causing him to do this, what is the situation.

Sorry for all the questions and you don't have to answer them, I know it is not your dog. Just some thoughts. This is where strong handed training can bite you in the butt. This can be a result of something that was done during training, the dog was forced to do something or accept something and was never really taught how to handle it or deal with it. And more often then not more force will not fix the problem. Make any sense to you?

[Mattweiser]

first off, thanks to Valdes and Doug, Nice contributions guys!!


now, Doug.. I like your methods (or whoevers ;) ) with one exception. what do you do with a dog that becomes prey locked onto the helper, to the point that he begins to block out all other stimuli??

also, we do use a portion of what you described, in fact that is our main method to break a dog of handler aggression, because we have the handler standing away from the dog and run it through these capping routines..... but, what I was describing was a method of keeping the dog from forging while heeling in the protection phase, and to do it without positive punishment...

but I definately like the exercise you detailed!! :)

Nice thread fellas! this is what this forum is really here for!!!

[Ramon]

Originally posted by Doug Wendling
Ramon
Was the dog taught an out platz, or out quiet? Or is he doing a regular bark and hold? And does the dog bite or just bump? Sometimes it is best to leave things alone and not try to squeeze every last point out of a dog. Sometimes that is when everything turns to s***. You know what I mean?:)

Their is so much to look at, does he favor on side over the other? Have you tried working him with two sleeves on, or have you tried to block him in the guard, what does he do? Have you ever worked the dog in a suit and see what he does? How is his out?

Try working him in some weird places and see how his guards are, buildings, brush, etc. Some times it is the case where you have to show the dog tougher things to deal with for him to learn how to handle trial stuff, make sense? Sounds like the dog never really learned how to counter in the H&B without biting, in other words he can't express himself completely just with barking. Does he bump/bite all the time or only from time to time? You need to look at what is causing him to do this, what is the situation.

Sorry for all the questions and you don't have to answer them, I know it is not your dog. Just some thoughts. This is where strong handed training can bite you in the butt. This can be a result of something that was done during training, the dog was forced to do something or accept something and was never really taught how to handle it or deal with it. And more often then not more force will not fix the problem. Make any sense to you?

I really don't know a whole lot about the Mal's training. His owner actually belongs to another club 3 hours away, but he is a good friend of our helper and a pretty good helper himself. The dog doesn't bite the sleeve on the guard, he just bumps it occassionally. Like I said, this dog is already a nationally titled SchIII. They want perfection because the dog has already achieved everything short of that. The only other question I can answer is that he definitely has been trained in all kinds of places. I remember the first time we stayed at the owner's farm, our decoy hid in the woods so the dog would find him.
I definitely think they are trying to squeeze every last point out. Maybe this isn't a good example. Most people here don't seem to understand the logic of going through all this trouble (electric mats, electric sleeve, specially designed e-collars, etc.) to squeeze out a few extra points on a dog that has already proven himself, but personally, I admire the owner's commitment to achieving his goals.