A few SchH. training/trial strategy questions (kinda long)

[cucciolone]

Hi. My club is on vacation for two weeks, and there are a few bits of information that I'd like to have before we start training again.

1) How do you teach the automatic sit on the recall and the retrieve? So far we haven't gotten into it. What I get now on the recall is a fast powerful face-in-my-pelvic-bone smash , and on the retrieve sometimes I get an I'm-KEEPing-this-dumbell-all-to-myself run past me to my right.

Also, if I improvised and added a verbal "sit" command to the routine, how many points would be detracted?

2) Is it imperative that the dog be in a sit during the presentation to the judge? My dog always wants to sniff strangers that stand right in front of him. Would it be a horrific thing if he sniffed the judge, will we get run off the field if he does this, or does it not really matter?

3) What do the judges usually want to do for the tattoo reading? My trainer wants me to lift Diesel by his front legs into a hindleg stand (his tattoo is on his thigh). It's not an easy thing for us to do! (The lightweight Dobermans at my club have a much simpler time of it.) Is the judge going to stick his face under there and actually try to read the whole number? In the Italian regulations that I printed out, they refer to this as an indifference test. We did this once with my trainer, and Diesel whipped his head around to monitor what the trainer was doing down there with his head. Can this pass for "indifference"? :p Any suggestions on this part of it?

4) What do you do if you should start "losing" the dog at a trial? (Aside from panicking, that is.) For example, if during heeling he forgets about eye contact and starts to focus on the crowd or another dog? Would it be better to let it go and hope he'll refocus on you, and risk losing him further? Or should you give a quick correction to get his eyes back on you, and take the detraction of points?

I'm getting kind of nervous thinking about all of the details. :D

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me!

[Ramon]

1) On the recall, I put a treat above his nose, just like teaching the sit, and he gets the treat when he sits. On the retrieve, I give a verbal sit command at first. Eventually, he sits on his own and doesn't get the reward until he sits and then gives me the dumbbell on command. My retrieve was motivational. If you're retrieve is forced, then you probably have to follow through with force because rewards and force usually don't go together. I'm not sure what the deduction is for adding another sit command, but my advice is not to trial until you have that part down. Starting with the Sch I , there will be multiple times the dog must sit in front of you during the trial, so that's already multiple deductions. You also have to take into account losing other points you didn't intend to lose. Pretty soon you're out of the running.

2) If you can't get your dog to sit in front of the judge for presentation, he's probably not ready to trial. His obedience needs to be dependable even under heavy distractions. The trial will be a new environment, even if it's on your home field, and if your dog's obedience isn't rock solid, you won't pass the trial. You must insist that the dog obey your commands every time. Anytime you give a command that he doesn't obey immediately, I suggest that you give him a quick correction one second after your command.

3) What the judge does about the tatto is up to him. My heavy set American Bulldog has a tattoo in under his leg. When I told that to the judge, he pretended that the tattoo was on his ear and he was satisfied that the dog would let someone inspect his ear. The big thing they look for is aggression.

4) Judges will deduct big points for corrections. Of course, they will also deduct points for losing focus. If he's on leash, I would probably try saying "look" rather softly. I probably wouldn't give him a correction unless he was pulling on the leash, in which case you've probably blown the trial anyway. If he's dog aggressive and pulls on the leash during the trial, you should considering pulling him from the trial at that point. The worst thing would be for him to break away from his heeling while he's off-leash and get into a fight with another dog.

[GenHannibal]

Answer to #1

When the dog gets close enough to you on the recall you tell it to sit. It will take practice as to when exactly to say it. I had to say it when the dog got about ten feet of me. (Gave him enough time to think about what I said and to react accordingly). Another way or addition to the above, you can have the dog on a long leash and say "hier" and as it comes close to you, tell the dog to sit. Once the dog understands that you want it to sit in front of you when you call it, then you can expect it on the retrieves. ALSO, I would mix it up, sometimes have a toy behind you or have food in your mouth, etc. This keeps the dog wanting to come fast.

No, you can't improvise and say sit on the recall you'll lose points. It's considered a double command.

Answer to #2

It is preferred that your dog keep to himself when you are reporting in to the judge. You won't get run off the field if the sniffs around . However, you should work with him by going up to people and make him understand that he needs to sit and nothing else. Make him focus on the you. It keeps you in control and him focused.

Answer to #3

Again, practice showing his tatoo...yes, if that means having him sit-up. Unfortunately, I've had to do the same thing and practice, with treats & lots of praise, will help. Most judges will look within a reasonable distance.

Answer to #4

Again, this goes back to practice and making sure that the dog knows what is expected of him/her. YOU should also practice the routine without the dog, so that KNOW the routine. No short-cuts. Too many people look for the shortest way to achieve their goal and they wind up doing even less than required. For instance, people will only practice the 30 paces down the first leg, when they should go for 40. Why? Because, when you're nervous you do less...like 20 paces. And, believe it or not, it's better for the dog if you stay consistent to what most judges will expect of you during the trial.

If you start losing the dog there various ways to "try" to get it's attention without losing too many points. And, it depends on the dog. Some dogs will react if you whisper his name or, you make a quiet noise with your mouth also, you can pick up the pace by walking faster. Many people lose their dogs if they walk too slow.

Many of your concerns can be resolved by training & practice. Good luck!;)

[cucciolone]

Thank you both very much for your help, I really appreciate it!

Ramon, we won't be doing anything until we're absolutely ready. We're working too hard on all of this stuff to shortchange ourselves by going out too early and making fools of ourselves. ;)

Thanks again!

[damp]

Originally posted by cucciolone
we won't be doing anything until we're absolutely ready.

And even you are absolutely ready… there are lot of points to loose (speaking from experience :o ) but it’s not the end of the world and you still bring the same dog home!!!

Good luck with your training ;)

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by damp
And even you are absolutely ready… there are lot of points to loose (speaking from experience :o ) but it’s not the end of the world and you still bring the same dog home!!!

That's something I've been wondering a lot about lately. Why is it so easy to lose points?! I've noticed here and there (not necessarily on the forum) that some people, SO much more experienced than I, sometimes come out of trials with scores a lot lower than I would expect to see from them and their dogs- and that worries me!

Well, we'll give it the old college try. ;) Scores aside, it's all good, isn't it? I LOVE training and tracking and jumping and retrieving. Bitework fascinates me. It even thrills me just to be heeling on the field, and to look down and see my boy looking up at me with that big, willing smile in his eyes. It's beautiful! :)

Good luck with your training ;)

Thanks, Damp!

[Mattweiser]

Michela,

that wasn't so hard was it??? (asking questions)

;)

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Ramon
If you're retrieve is forced, then you probably have to follow through with force because rewards and force usually don't go together.

why not?

adding rewards is the easiest way to get a dog through a "compulsion-based" session...

I use a "forced-recall" that is rewarded with food... works vey well, and keeps the dog in a "positive" mindset. The most important rule to using "compulsion" is not to make the training about the compulsion, but rather about the behavior. that is how you avoid "damaging" the dog's drive.

[GenHannibal]

Absolutely! There is no reason why you can't praise the dog that did what you "forced him to do" and he complied. You want the dog to keep his confidence up and by praising him at the right time, you will get a more responsive & forgiving dog. You, the trainer, have to be able to switch just as quickly.. and not keep the compulsion mindset on-going. This is why we see so some dogs crawling during their routines. Observers know there has been compulsion put on the dog without any positive feedback to free up the dog.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by GenHannibal
This is why we see so some dogs crawling during their routines. Observers know there has been compulsion put on the dog without any positive feedback to free up the dog.

Not only is "crawling" a concern.. I am more concerned about the more "serious" dog and their potential for handler-aggression...

I see that alot with the Malinois in my area... they are vey dominant, civil dogs... overcorrect them once, without making it very clear that they can do the "right thing" and you will have some new "air conditioning" in your leg!!! ;) ...

[Ramon]

There are some cases where you can mix rewards and compulsion. If you have a compulsion-based session, it's good to end it with a play session (if your dog is up to it). It's also good to have play time in the middle of the session. When I train my dog for weight pull, I mix the two all the time, kind of like the forced recall. However, it's hard for me to imagine rewarding a dog during the middle of a forced retrieve. Re-reading the original thread, my guess is that Michela's dog was taught a motivational retrieve because he runs past her and keeps the dumbbell.

[GenHannibal]

My first Rottie was a "serious as a heart-attack" kind of dog. We did do "forced retrieve" and it wasn't pretty. However, the dog got praise when he did what was asked of him...despite the snarling, growling & snapping during the session. Otherwise, I would have had that "air conditioning" in my arm or whatever else he would have gone for.:D The animal needs to know that he did the job required...by praising him for it. Doesn't mean you have to hug, cuddle, etc. It gives the dog a clearer picture of what is expected of him. One cannot continuously give compulsion and not give some type of release. You can shut the dog down to the point of no return. That is why compulsion needs to be done correctly and with an experience Trainer. Praises are given at the correct time during those sessions.

I think what you are thinking of as in praise in the middle of the session is a release and play type. What I am saying is the these praises are more of an encouragement, along with positive body language, given to the dog when it did what was expected.

[Ramon]

Our training director does remind me to verbally praise my dog after giving him sharp corrections during heeling, for instance, because he doesn't want my dog to shut down. He always tells me to relieve pressure during compulsive training. However, he has also told me that positive based training (like clicker training, food rewards, etc.) doesn't mix with negative based training. I know, for instance, if you're doing compulsive heeling with sharp corrections for every little deviation and trying to mix it with clicker training, it doesn't work. Now that the dog associates heeling with unpleasantness, the clicker is no longer a motivational tool, it's just an annoyance. Also, I heard from experienced people that if you've been teaching a motivational retrieve but decide in the middle of your training to go with lots of force, there's no going back.

[GenHannibal]

Right, food & clicker training would not be appropriate when that type of compulsion is being applied. PRAISE and encouragement is appropriate!

Depends on the dog and how much compulsion is needed. I started out with Hannibal by doing motivational and had to use compulsion briefly, then went back to movtivational. Compulsion was used to reinforce that he HAD to do it not matter what and distraction wasn't an excuse. Fortunately, he did not need much (compulsion). He was very reliable when it came to retrieves. Each dog is different and if it's a dog who isn't reliable & stubborn, then yes you most likely can't go back to motivational.

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
Michela,

that wasn't so hard was it??? (asking questions)

;)

!!

:p :D